Proposal regarding withdrawing units

[Iñaki Harrizabalagatar]

It has been stated that units will be withdrawn according to historical dates. There are a number of reasons why I don´t like that, imagine for instance the SS units sent to Italy in 1943. The Soviet player knows it is going to happen, so he can sit back until those units are withdrawn to commence an offensive, it detracts from uncertainty in the game.
So, my proposal is, why don´t offer the Axis player an option, so that he can select not withdrawing the units but instead paying a price in victory points?

[Hard Sarge]

overall, I don't think that is going to be a issue, if the SU player wants to go on the Off, he is not going to be worried if there is a SS Div or Corps around, in fact, you going to be hoping one is around, so you can suck it up with the Off

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

It has been stated that units will be withdrawn according to historical dates. There are a number of reasons why I don´t like that, imagine for instance the SS units sent to Italy in 1943. The Soviet player knows it is going to happen, so he can sit back until those units are withdrawn to commence an offensive, it detracts from uncertainty in the game.
So, my proposal is, why don´t offer the Axis player an option, so that he can select not withdrawing the units but instead paying a price in victory points?

I know it's difficult to comprehend since you haven't seen the game yet but the sheer size of the game makes such concerns minor. Rarely does an Axis division amount to more than 1% of overall strength so the withdrawal of a division or two has little impact on the game. As for the Russian player exploiting withdrawals by holding back an offensive until they happen, that is not a good strategy to follow. Time is never on the side of player on the offensive. Once the strategic initiative has shifted to the Russian player, he must attack at every opportunity and relentlessly. Waiting for an Axis division or two to withdrawal will allow scores of equipment and thousands of men to flow to the front lines to reinforce the Axis divisions remaining on the front. Knowing the Axis divisions will withdraw is an advantage of historical hindsight the real Russians didn't (always) have but not likely one you can take too much consolation in.

[Kesselring]

Why not use the same way in WiR? Plus the removal of player production control, I think the developers are simplifying their work by sacrificing the game quality.

[PyleDriver]

Here I am agian, the "blue in the face guy". Stop thinking about WIR, this game is so much deeper than that game ever was. And I played it more than any other game ever. So I guess the real problem is waiting...Damn

[Hard Sarge]

also, when on the Attack, you tend to go for the flanks, or the weak sisters, you don't pound your head against the wall, type deal

if you have 6 or 8 Pz Divs in the line across from you, you are in the wrong place for the Off to begin

(of course, somebody is in trouble, already, if they have there Pz Divs in the line, to defend)

[Sentinel Six]

What happens if a unit is in the line at the time it is mandatorily withdrawn? Does it leave a gap or do you receive advance notice that it is going to be withdrawn so you can replace it in the line with another unit?

[Helpless]

What happens if a unit is in the line at the time it is mandatorily withdrawn? Does it leave a gap or do you receive advance notice that it is going to be withdrawn so you can replace it in the line with another unit?

Iirc, there is a three turns notice.

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: Kesselring

Why not use the same way in WiR? Plus the removal of player production control, I think the developers are simplifying their work by sacrificing the game quality.

There is a seperate thread for "Free Production" ... wasting your breath here. There will be no free production, but I am hoping to be able to alter, via an editor, the "file" that allows certain tweeking of equipment arrival, etc. But that's from the get go not an in game capability.

[Sentinel Six]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

What happens if a unit is in the line at the time it is mandatorily withdrawn? Does it leave a gap or do you receive advance notice that it is going to be withdrawn so you can replace it in the line with another unit?

Iirc, there is a three turns notice.

Thank you

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: Kesselring

Why not use the same way in WiR? Plus the removal of player production control, I think the developers are simplifying their work by sacrificing the game quality.

Yes we are simplifying our work, by a lot. This is an important point in the world of software development. No we don't believe we are sacrificing quality. We are not including a feature that we realize some people would like to have but which we have specifically decided to leave out based on the design focus of the game, and the various systems that make the game tic (and make it different and we think better than WiR). We think the quality is better than WiR. But they are two very different games. Including a realistic production control model is not a trivial undertaking. That said, if WitE is as popular as WitP, who knows what will happen down the road, but it won't be in the initial product. Of course, for those of you that require production control, there's nothing I'm going to say that's going to change your mind, so I think I'll keep quiet on this from here on out.

[Kesselring]

My focus in this thread is about the withdraw of troops. Just answer my question, which way is better, the WiR way or the currently planned way? If you choose the latter one, I'll have nothing more to say. Otherwise, please explain why not use the better one. Don't tell me you have already gotten enough improvements such as graphics over WiR which is developed a decade ago, so you can ignore some good features in that game. Simply speaking, your target is to develop a game with acceptable quality instead of maximizing the quality (lol, why not?). It is my fault to place too high hopes on it, sigh.

[PyleDriver]

The currently planned way...WIR offered to much pie in the sky, this doesn't. Work with what you got or we'll shoot you and find someone who can...lol...

[paullus99]

Kesselring - WiR was a fantastic game for the time (and still holds up very well for us regular players even today) - I believe that WiTE will be an entirely different animal (really the only similarities between the two are going to be the theater of operation), with much greater attention to detail, logistics, and operations.

For the most part, we're just working off of supposition here, since the game is still in development and hasn't even reached Beta yet. So I would be very careful with stating a bunch of "Facts" that WiR was better - since you don't actually know that.

[Kesselring]

I'm not saying WiR is better, instead, I'm saying that there are some good features in WiR that the WitE should follow to make it as good as possible. These features are not unachivable since there have already been provided by other games such as WiR, WitP, EDBtR. If you all don't want these features, what can I say?

[Helpless]

The good news about withdrawals that they are not hardcoded anymore. So anyone not happy with historical setup, could mod it out.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Kesselring

I'm not saying WiR is better, instead, I'm saying that there are some good features in WiR that the WitE should follow to make it as good as possible. These features are not unachivable since there have already been provided by other games such as WiR, WitP, EDBtR. If you all don't want these features, what can I say?

First, I think you're forgetting that there were built in withdrawals in WiR in the form of required commitments of panzer divisions to the Southern and Western fronts that rose with each year of the War. These commitments changed precisely on the first turn of each year regardless of what (if anything) was happening on those fronts. The whole off map process was a crude attempt to simulate events in those theatres that anyone who played the game would have to admit was less than satisfying. I remember one game in which I was closing in on Berlin in the summer of 1944 a good year ahead of the historical timetable only to get a message that the Allies had captured Berlin and I had LOST! So much for any historical value in WiR.

Second, the working assumption of WitE is that the events that occurred historically off the Eastern Front will occur at the same time in the game. The withdrawals are the Germans' response to those events. Yes, you can't send more or less or even different units than were withdrawn historically but you also can't be subjected to unpredictable off map results that ruin hours and hours of play. The point of the game is to fight the WAR IN THE EAST not the Eastern front in detail and the rest of Europe in abstraction. In my opinion the fixed withdrawals are a small price to pay for a game in which players' decisions and not the vagarities of some bit of computer code determine the outcome of the game.

[Kesselring]

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: Kesselring

I'm not saying WiR is better, instead, I'm saying that there are some good features in WiR that the WitE should follow to make it as good as possible. These features are not unachivable since there have already been provided by other games such as WiR, WitP, EDBtR. If you all don't want these features, what can I say?

First, I think you're forgetting that there were built in withdrawals in WiR in the form of required commitments of panzer divisions to the Southern and Western fronts that rose with each year of the War. These commitments changed precisely on the first turn of each year regardless of what (if anything) was happening on those fronts. The whole off map process was a crude attempt to simulate events in those theatres that anyone who played the game would have to admit was less than satisfying. I remember one game in which I was closing in on Berlin in the summer of 1944 a good year ahead of the historical timetable only to get a message that the Allies had captured Berlin and I had LOST! So much for any historical value in WiR.

Second, the working assumption of WitE is that the events that occurred historically off the Eastern Front will occur at the same time in the game. The withdrawals are the Germans' response to those events. Yes, you can't send more or less or even different units than were withdrawn historically but you also can't be subjected to unpredictable off map results that ruin hours and hours of play. The point of the game is to fight the WAR IN THE EAST not the Eastern front in detail and the rest of Europe in abstraction. In my opinion the fixed withdrawals are a small price to pay for a game in which players' decisions and not the vagarities of some bit of computer code determine the outcome of the game.

If my memory serves, a historical event such as invasion of Normandy will occur only when the Axis strength is weaker than the Allies' on a certain front, which means the Axis play can reinforce these fronts to avoid these events, instead of waiting them happen at the historical time. In addition, the player can select troops to reinforce these fronts. Which way is better, the WiR way or your way?

Second, if you are playing Axis against computer (I think for most players, they have to play with AI most of the time), probably you can control the situation in the East in the 2nd or 3rd year. In this case, you may have too many troops resting in the East, but still cannot move additional troops to west or Italy to prevent historical events, is that satisfying?

[Kesselring]

If you need things happen exactly as that in history, you need a history book, not a game. A game needs freedom and flexibility.

[paullus99]

I really think we need to give these guys the benefit of the doubt on this one - we don't know exactly how it will effect the game (either positive or negative).