For Glory

[JWE]

For all the people out there who think war is fun and glory:

Betty Feldhaber, a nurse in the 40th Med Bn, from Council Bluffs, Iowa, 1942 – her words:

“When I made my rounds there was a young Marine who asked ..”
“Is it going to be ok?”
I bent over and kissed his forehead and said, “It’s going to be fine.”
“Thanks”, he said, “just checking.” And then he died.

“We cry every night. We cry till there’s nothing left, and then cry some more.”

“But never in front of the boys. Never, ever, in front of the boys.”

[LST Express]

Fun and glory is for games and movies.

[P.Hausser]

But do really anyone here think that there is anything glorious about war ?


War's are fought between factions, nations, coalitions or empires ...  and they are always about the same thing - they are always about power, resources, political influence or about controlling important territory.  

Some times we think the war's are about something else, but they are never about something else. 

There are no heroes and there are no glory...  because fighting for somebody else's resources, political influence, territory or power has no glory to it.  


The true heroes don't fight unless they are attacked.

[thegreatwent]

Somebody once post that it would be fun to actually be at Guadalcanal. Nearly all the posters that responded exclaimed "NO"!

[Swenslim]

War is evil, and all who starts wars will rot in Hell. 

My grandfather fought in Stalingrad, when he arrived with his division to the city, there were 4600 soldiers. After two weeks of battle were only 50 soldiers alive in the division.



This is just game for fun... something like chess.

[Nomad]

Both of my Grandfathers fought in WW1, my dad fought in WW2 and I did Vietnam. I am very anti-war, but not pacifist. There is no glory in war, only pain.

[Anthropoid]

Well . . . as one who has not served in a military, I wish to ask this very humbly: is the service of those who sacrifice for the sake of great causes like the defeat of fascism, or the emancipation of American slaves not glorious?
 
Indeed, it seems to me that the loyalty and devotion to voluntarily be willing to pay the ultimate sacrifice for "ones people," virtually no matter what the cause of those people, might arguably be the most virtuous, the most "glorious" of human actions? Killer angels?

[P.Hausser]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Well . . . as one who has not served in a military, I wish to ask this very humbly: is the service of those who sacrifice for the sake of great causes like the defeat of fascism, or the emancipation of American slaves not glorious?

Indeed, it seems to me that the loyalty and devotion to voluntarily be willing to pay the ultimate sacrifice for "ones people," virtually no matter what the cause of those people, might arguably be the most virtuous, the most "glorious" of human actions? Killer angels?

Often those causes are pretext's to gain control, power, resources, political influence ect or to deny ones financial enemy of gaining any of those.


Nations don't fight wars to save people from slavery, torture, fascism or communism or whatever.. nations simply don't care that much about other people's suffering. "Their" suffering however enables the own nation to gain one of the above advantages through war.. or to prevent the competitor nation of gaining any of those advantages.

If we cared about peoples suffering, then we would not allow 1 Million Afrikaans to get massacred in Africa for a few decades ago.. or all the other suffering going on around in the world, at locations of less political and financial value.


The world is about money, and all wars is either directly or indirectly about money.



Fighting to "save" someone is good for national pride, troop morale and political effects, but it has no bearing on reality whatsoever.

[Wirraway_Ace]

Sorry, but there is both great glory and terrible tragedy in war. If you treat the wounded (in some ways worse than handling the dead), your view will be filled with the tragedy. However, this is true of any trauma center ER nurse or doc. Life seems very full of tragedy.

Of course war is about wealth and power. But if your society's wealth (and thus your own and your families) is the object of another's desire, then war is the result if they are insistent. You have to decide if it is worth fighting for. WW2 was simpler than most in this respect.

[Grunt]

I served in the US Marine Corps but never saw combat. I was prepared both mentally and physically to do so. But I didn't want to see war anymore than a fireman wants to see your house burn down. The same is true for wargamers. Just because we play wargames, it doesn't mean we glorify war or want to see lives destroyed. For me it's a respect for those who served on both sides. I'm attracted to military history because I want to understand the participant's sacrifice and suffering. Extreme hardship brings out the best and worst in people. Do I wonder how I would have performed? Sure. And wondering if I could have performed as well, is the highest compliment I can pay to those who served and did their duty.

[Swenslim]

Glory at war is fairy tail to tell to little boys, stupid electors and sexy girls.
In reality at war nobody thinks about glory exept few madmans... everyone is thinking how to survive and return to their families alive not in coffins.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser
Often those causes are pretext's to gain control, power, resources, political influence ect or to deny ones financial enemy of gaining any of those.


Nations don't fight wars to save people from slavery, torture, fascism or communism or whatever.. nations simply don't care that much about other people's suffering. "Their" suffering however enables the own nation to gain one of the above advantages through war.. or to prevent the competitor nation of gaining any of those advantages.

If we cared about peoples suffering, then we would not allow 1 Million Afrikaans to get massacred in Africa for a few decades ago.. or all the other suffering going on around in the world, at locations of less political and financial value.


The world is about money, and all wars is either directly or indirectly about money.



Fighting to "save" someone is good for national pride, troop morale and political effects, but it has no bearing on reality whatsoever.

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more, P. Hausser. There is honor in fighting for one's beliefs and save these things one believes in.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

Glory at war is fairy tail to tell to little boys, stupid electors and sexy girls.
In reality at war nobody thinks about glory exept few madmans... everyone is thinking how to survive and return to their families alive not in coffins.

All glory is a fairy tale. Glory in business, in raising a family, etc. is nothing but a feeling of a job worth doing, done well--and the recognition that sometimes comes with doing something well.

In my experience, plenty of people think about glory in war. From the lowest private to the highest general. It is a more common trait amongst the young, but not exclusive.

Years later they change their tune because all glory is a passing thing...

[jazman]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

Sorry, but there is both great glory and terrible tragedy in war. If you treat the wounded (in some ways worse than handling the dead), your view will be filled with the tragedy. However, this is true of any trauma center ER nurse or doc. Life seems very full of tragedy.

Of course war is about wealth and power. But if your society's wealth (and thus your own and your families) is the object of another's desire, then war is the result if they are insistent. You have to decide if it is worth fighting for. WW2 was simpler than most in this respect.

Anything really important is worth fighting for, such as our women. And Wirraway_Ace is right: there is lots of glory in war. It's just that women don't understand any of it, although we fight for our women. Robert E. Lee: "It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it."

[Rainer]

I was a soldier with the German army 1968 to 1972. Once we met American soldiers in Germany coming from Viet Nam. They were about 5 years younger than we were then. Their faces were grey and they looked older than us. All smoked, some smoked tobacco. When they lit a cigarette it often broke in two but they did not notice. They looked at us but they did not see us.

War stinks. Burned wood stinks and burned flesh.
There is no glory in war.
Not at all.
And you don't fight for women. Or freedom.
You fight to stay alive.

Glory is for journalists and generals. Not for soldiers.
Ask those who have seen war.

[rogueusmc]

First, you have to define glory...

Young GySgt sends a .50 Cal. round 1.25 miles down range into a young Vietnamese boy who was transporting weapons for the enemy. Was there glory in it? Yes. Was he looking for glory when he did it? Probably not.

Young marine SSgt saw two grenades land among his fellow marines. he drives one with his heel into the mud and drops to cover the other one. Was there glory in it? Yes. Was he looking for glory when he did it? Probably not.

Young Petty Officer goes from marine to marine making triage assessments. He opens a compress and applies it to the lower abdomen of one marine and asks another marine to apply pressure then moves to the next marine knowing all the while that when he gets back to that marine, he will probably be dead. He makes the tough choices to spend the time on the ones he has a chance to save and make the last moments as comfortable as possible for the ones he can't. Was there glory in it? Yes. Was he looking for glory when he did it? Probably not.

Young Private drives a truck carrying hot chow to guys sitting out in the middle of nowhere who look forward to something other than an MRE every once in a while. Was there glory in it? Yes. Was he looking for glory when he did it? Probably not.

Glory is doing what has to be done because you have made a commitment to your God, your country and your fellow soldiers, sailor, marines and airmen to perform the responsibilities laid on you by those appointed over you. The bragging rights you earn by knowing you did your job well should be honored by all. Let no man cheapen what those brave souls have done by saying that it was not worth it.

Semper Fi, do or die,
Lee

[ChezDaJez]

Glory is doing what has to be done because you have made a commitment to your God, your country and your fellow soldiers, sailor, marines and airmen to perform the responsibilities laid on you by those appointed over you. [/b]

I would also submit that while we may go to war for our God, our country and our families, we FIGHT for our fellow soldier, sailor, airman or marine because he is willing to put his life on the line to save ours. And when a man does that, there is glory in it.

The bragging rights you earn by knowing you did your job well should be honored by all. Let no man cheapen what those brave souls have done by saying that it was not worth it.

Well said, Rogue.

Chez

[P.Hausser]

Glory is never to be the one who causes a war.

The ones who fight in any war as the attacker I despise, I really despise them and everything they belive in.  I think this is  mostly because they usually have no idea why they are doing it, and it is never  because of the reason that they have been told by their government.  Often I think they don't Evan care about the reason, they just see it as a adventure.  

They go out to kill people from and in another country, because that is it what their politicians have told them to do.    

Glory is to defend your own country, or another country.   There is no glory in attacking someone.

[DuckofTindalos]

I've never been shot at, despite having served, and I'm glad (because I'm too big to duck quickly enough).

I'd like to hope that if somebody had shot at me, I'd have done well, not for glory, but for my friends next to me.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser
Glory is never to be the one who causes a war.

The ones who fight in any war as the attacker I despise, I really despise them and everything they belive in. I think this is mostly because they usually have no idea why they are doing it, and it is never because of the reason that they have been told by their government. Often I think they don't Evan care about the reason, they just see it as a adventure.

They go out to kill people from and in another country, because that is it what their politicians have told them to do.

Glory is to defend your own country, or another country. There is no glory in attacking someone.

This is a bunch of self-righteous nonsense. There are times when one should fight a preemptive war. Germany going into Czechoslovakia is a perfect example of when nations of the world should have attacked and attacked violently and aggressively. When Rome tried to bribe and pacify the Huns is another example of a war that should not have been avoided. History is rife with examples like these where the failure to act cost far more in the end than immediate action would have.

The notion that all wars are fought for money and power is simply a ruse you tell yourself to justify your pacifist tendencies. Some wars, usually the worst of them, are fought for nothing more than pure hatred and a desire to impose ones will over another group of people. Then there are the religious wars, these have been some of the bloodiest in history and are the cause of a lot of the hatreds that exist in the world today.

Every single great power in history that has ever been in a position of total military dominance over the rest of the world the way America is today, has used that power to conquer and subjugated the less powerful nations around them. To date, since the US became the most powerful nation on earth after WWII, our borders have remained the same.

Sure we fight wars to impose our will on others, but usually (emphasis on usually) we at least try and do the right thing by those we conquer. We don’t always get it right, but we are the first nation in history to at least try.

That said, I wouldn’t say glory is the right word for many of the wars fought in the past 200 years or so, but definitely honor is appropriate. Many of the wars fought have been honorable wars, and many were worse than they should have been because of the blind posturing of pacifists who think like you and refuse to confront the true nature of man.

Some wars need to be fought, it’s that simple. Making grand pronouncements that anyone who attacks anyone else is and must be evil is simply sticking your head in the sand and avoiding the reality that the world is. Like it or not some people need to be killed and some nations need to be destroyed because of the people who run them. That’s just the way the world is and always has been.

Jim