Little whine and tears about high altitude sweeps

[Swenslim]

Ok...like allied players whine about broken China i want to release some steam and whine about high altitude sweeps of Hurricanes in India.

In my pbem game my opponent had 1-1 loses in air battle over Burma and Ceylon on 15-22000 feets, but in last few turn he began to sweep my airfields at 38500 feet altitude. Now my kill ratio in Hurricanes 2b is 5 or even 6 to 1 agains my Zeroes and Oscars. I know that Hurricane is very good plane, but i dont think it is normal when low expirienced 45-50 epx pilots easy bit 70-80 pilots just sweeping in stratosphere

Whine is over [:D]

[Smeulders]

The manoeuvrability advantage of the Japanese planes vs. the Hurricane is minimal at high altitudes, maybe try keeping your planes lower, it might give him the opportunity to bounce on your planes, but after that you better manoeuvre ratings should come into play more.

[EUBanana]

Hurricanes rock at high altitudes.

My experience of fighting as Allies in Burma has been this :

Oscars come in against the AVG at equal altitude - even losses.
Oscars come in in high altitude sweeps against the AVG - Oscars win, AVG can't counter as the P40 ceiling isn't high enough.
Oscars come in at high altitude sweeps against Hurricanes - Oscars lose, Hurricanes can go higher still!
Oscars come in at medium altitude against AVG and Hurricanes - even losses.

The Hurricane seems like quite an acceptable machine in AE, more so than it was in WITP. So far though I think high altitude is it's specialty, and the P40 is better at lower altitudes. High altitude sweeps work wonders against P40s but not against Hurris.

So I can throw your whine back - stop trying to out altitude the Allies for easy kills like you do against the AVG. [:'(][:-]

[Swenslim]

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

The manoeuvrability advantage of the Japanese planes vs. the Hurricane is minimal at high altitudes, maybe try keeping your planes lower, it might give him the opportunity to bounce on your planes, but after that you better manoeuvre ratings should come into play more.

That the problem ! Hurricane like P-38 dives on my planes that struggle to rise to 38500 and killes them like a ducks.

[khyberbill]

So I can throw your whine back - stop trying to out altitude the Allies for easy kills like you do against the AVG.

[:D]

[Smeulders]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

The manoeuvrability advantage of the Japanese planes vs. the Hurricane is minimal at high altitudes, maybe try keeping your planes lower, it might give him the opportunity to bounce on your planes, but after that you better manoeuvre ratings should come into play more.

That the problem ! Hurricane like P-38 dives on my planes that struggle to rise to 38500 and killes them like a ducks.

And after they do that, they are still at an altitude where they aren't being outmanoeuvred. Take the initial losses, but make him fight where you hold the advantage.

I've seen other posts of zeroes and oscars being slaughtered by hurricanes at max altitude, but even losses around 15k - 20k feet. Difference was that in this case the Japanese were sweeping, but the point remains, + 30k, the hurricanes rule, lower, they don't.

[xj900uk]

Because of its low wing-loading, a lot of Allied planes (even P39 or P40) could out-dive a Zero - this saved many of our pilots from it's guns.
Pulling up in time though was a compeltely different kettle of fish...

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

Ok...like allied players whine about broken China i want to release some steam and whine about high altitude sweeps of Hurricanes in India.

In my pbem game my opponent had 1-1 loses in air battle over Burma and Ceylon on 15-22000 feets, but in last few turn he began to sweep my airfields at 38500 feet altitude. Now my kill ratio in Hurricanes 2b is 5 or even 6 to 1 agains my Zeroes and Oscars. I know that Hurricane is very good plane, but i dont think it is normal when low expirienced 45-50 epx pilots easy bit 70-80 pilots just sweeping in stratosphere

Whine is over [:D]

Thanks for the information!! [:D]

[Swenslim]

Hey [:-][:D]

[jwilkerson]

In my 2x2 AAR game (I am IJA) my kill ratio for last several turns is:

24 Hurricane "Buzzsaws" shot down

versus

06 Oscars shot down

Just counting the fighter versus fighter air to air combat. So four to one ratio in favor of IJA.

These combats were in the 10k to 15k altitude band.

[Walloc]

Two notes.

First to original poster. Playing as allied i've been at the recieving end of Zero/oscar's sweeping in at max altitude sweeps getting amazing kill rates on just about every thing in sight. Easily 5-1 kills and usually more like 10-1 kill rate.

So i did same to him with my Hurricans and saw the same as u did. They got 5/6-1 kill rates the other way around all of a sudden.


To Joe W. Can i ask who was sweeping who in those results?


As i understand TheElf he wanted sweep to be the superior combat form and i get his reasoning behind it.

Still im left from playing as far as i have no which isnt necesarrily that long into the campaigns that sweeping seems to be a bit too overpowered. That said its the trend through out all the air combats i've expereince as in games seen from both sides. If planes and pilots are "near" comparible. P-35 vs Zero wont produce this both ways [;)].

In the sense If side A with plane B sweeps side X with planes Y you see 6-1 results.
If u reverse the sweeping it u can see 6-1 results the other way. Considering that its the same pilots and planes involved a difference of 36-1 in end result. Especially if u get the altitude advantage using max altitudes. Or getting 4/5/6-1 sweeping and then losing 4/5/6-1 escorting or "cap'ing".
That leaves me wondering if the bonus u get sweeping isnt a bit too high. Im absolutly not contesting that u should get a advantage but going from 4/5/6-1 to 4/5/6-1 the other way around with same planes and pilots seems a bit much. The diffence is huge statiscly.


Just my observations so far,

Rasmus

[xj900uk]

It depends who gets the 'bounce' on whom.  The Hurricanne is one of the few planes that can turn with the Zero (at least for a bit),  and the 8 mg's (later increased to 12 on the IIb) can chew up the lighter Japanese planes like they were made of balsa wood.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Walloc
To Joe W. Can i ask who was sweeping who in those results?

In my game, from which I was citing results, the "Buzzsaws" have been sweeping the Oscars. In two major rounds of "Sweep Combat" the Oscars shot down 19 Buzzsaws for 01 Oscar the first time and 15 Buzzsaws for 5 Oscars the second time. Net results were 34 Buzzsaws to 6 Oscars or over 5 to 1 in favor of the (defending) Oscars. Another difference was there was a large group of Oscar 1a in the second combat, whereas the first combat only involved Oscar 1c. Not sure whether that affected the results. Combat altitudes have remained in the 10K to 15K range for these engagements.

As i understand TheElf he wanted sweep to be the superior combat form and i get his reasoning behind it.

Actually the "sweep bonus" is a long standing feature of WITP "stock". So if Elf wished sweep to be powerful, he was preceeded in this by Gary. And Elf is well aware of this, as we've discussed possible explanations for Gary's design a several occasions. I'm not actually sure I understand the reason(s) behind it but as we often say, this aspect is "SAIEW" (Same As It Ever Was"). [:)]

[jrcar]

Those are the FOW results, actual hurricane losses were about half that but certainly at the 10-15k range the Oscar do good (plus the 'canes are at extended range).

In other games I have seen a wide variety of results, from 'canes dominating Zero to falling form the sky. There are lots of factors at play height, experiance etc... It is a rock paper sissors type action... what works one turn doesn't the next as the enemy adapts...

Cheers

Rob

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Walloc
To Joe W. Can i ask who was sweeping who in those results?

In my game, from which I was citing results, the "Buzzsaws" have been sweeping the Oscars. In two major rounds of "Sweep Combat" the Oscars shot down 19 Buzzsaws for 01 Oscar the first time and 15 Buzzsaws for 5 Oscars the second time. Net results were 34 Buzzsaws to 6 Oscars or over 5 to 1 in favor of the (defending) Oscars. Another difference was there was a large group of Oscar 1a in the second combat, whereas the first combat only involved Oscar 1c. Not sure whether that affected the results. Combat altitudes have remained in the 10K to 15K range for these engagements.

As i understand TheElf he wanted sweep to be the superior combat form and i get his reasoning behind it.

Actually the "sweep bonus" is a long standing feature of WITP "stock". So if Elf wished sweep to be powerful, he was preceeded in this by Gary. And Elf is well aware of this, as we've discussed possible explanations for Gary's design a several occasions. I'm not actually sure I understand the reason(s) behind it but as we often say, this aspect is "SAIEW" (Same As It Ever Was"). [:)]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: jrcar

Those are the FOW results, actual hurricane losses were about half that but certainly at the 10-15k range the Oscar do good (plus the 'canes are at extended range).

In other games I have seen a wide variety of results, from 'canes dominating Zero to falling form the sky. There are lots of factors at play height, experiance etc... It is a rock paper sissors type action... what works one turn doesn't the next as the enemy adapts...

Cheers

Rob

Exactly.

In my early game with Przemek I tried the high altitude tactic vs. the Hurricane ---which i coined a Buzzsaw, as Joe W. facetiously refers to them [:D] --- and i was getting my butt handed to me.

I then altered tactics and reduced altitude...which lowered the kill ratio somewhat. However many of my sweeps came in uncoordinated and I was always outnumbered.

So I changed tactics again and decided to sweep a hex adjacent to his main airbase. This allowed my Sweepers to attract some CAP leakers and gave me the numerical advantage in the A2A battle in that hex.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: treespider
So I changed tactics again and decided to sweep a hex adjacent to his main airbase. This allowed my Sweepers to attract some CAP leakers and gave me the numerical advantage in the A2A battle in that hex.

Now that is cheap. Thats practically an exploit. How on earth would you counter it?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: treespider
So I changed tactics again and decided to sweep a hex adjacent to his main airbase. This allowed my Sweepers to attract some CAP leakers and gave me the numerical advantage in the A2A battle in that hex.

Now that is cheap. Thats practically an exploit. How on earth would you counter it?

By setting LRCAP over that hex.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: treespider
So I changed tactics again and decided to sweep a hex adjacent to his main airbase. This allowed my Sweepers to attract some CAP leakers and gave me the numerical advantage in the A2A battle in that hex.

Now that is cheap. Thats practically an exploit. How on earth would you counter it?

Ambushing the "leaky CAP" is a long standing tactic from WITP. Actually when I'm playing Japan (er - which is pretty much always I guess) like in Burma - I rely on the "leaky CAP" to be my defence for some bases - and thus must accept the "ambush of leaky cap" tactic. But you can certainly counter it by moving your fighters - or standing them down - or doing anything other than flying cap! The "Leaky CAP" is still there in AE. I think in stock (WITP) it only leakyed out to 2 hexes but in AE it seems to be 3 - so more leaky CAP for your money!!!

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: treespider
By setting LRCAP over that hex.

Thats no counter at all. LRCAP fatigues the hell out of your fighters, you could do it one turn maybe. And it's a tossup as
to whether that is the day the bombers come knocking...

But you can certainly counter it by moving your fighters - or standing them down - or doing anything other than flying cap!

It still seems like an exploit to me. So in the Battle of Britain you attack the empty field 40 miles west of Biggin Hill rather than Biggin Hill itself, because you know there'll mysteriously be a couple of Spitfires in some sort of quantum state that wandered over that hill by accident, and the rest of the squadron is stuck elsewhere?

That is just bizarre.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

It still seems like an exploit to me. So in the Battle of Britain you attack the empty field 40 miles west of Biggin Hill rather than Biggin Hill itself, because you know there'll mysteriously be a couple of Spitfires in some sort of quantum state that wandered over that hill by accident, and the rest of the squadron is stuck elsewhere?

That is just bizarre.

That is probably supposed to emulate the historical practice of free hunting, which was probably the most kill-to-loss efficient way of using your fighters in RL. You most likely can counter it by reducing the operational range of squadrons that currently fly CAP to 0 (don't know for sure, AI hadn't even used any normal sweeps so far).