The value of the Editor

[Buck Beach]

JWE "Oh, heck yeah! There's really 2 parts to the game, the editor numbers, and the code. Everyony gets them confused and thinks they are the same thing.

Editor numbers are fun, but those are the ones everybody "demands" must be acording to their version historical. They are pretty, however, and if the point is to show people a "pretty" OOB, the editor will let you do that. But, the code don't care about pretty, so a historically precise set of editor fields (according to opinion) would probably bugger the game; but what the hey, most historico Nazis don't actually play, so they can make all the "pretty" OOBs they want - they won't work, but they will be 'pretty".
Need to know how the code works in order to efficiently "prettify" the field values."

So as to keep me from spinning my wheels, just what type of entries by the Editor do have value or make changes in the game? If I tweak the devices in a BF (naval, guns, air support, etc.)? If I change the weapons to a more historic time table on a ship? If I accelerate or delay a ship, BF or some other units arrival? And what about new leaders and ships? What if I want to further break down an Alaskan Army Regiment to companies and reallocate them historically?

I am not trying to be critical but the quote above begs for further clarification and I am a big boy who can take the truth. I am retire, but, I seriously don't need prettifying busy work to take up my excess time.

[DuckofTindalos]

What you enter in the editor is the data that the code takes and uses in the game. Data doesn't change code, so nothing you enter in the editor will change the game.

That doesn't mean you can't make a horribly imbalanced SCENARIO, with 500 Japanese battleships or 200 US Army Divisions in the Philippines on 12/7/41, but nothing will change the code of the game.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

What you enter in the editor is the data that the code takes and uses in the game. Data doesn't change code, so nothing you enter in the editor will change the game.

That doesn't mean you can't make a horribly imbalanced SCENARIO, with 500 Japanese battleships or 200 US Army Divisions in the Philippines on 12/7/41, but nothing will change the code of the game.

Code, Data, having a little problem wrapping my arms around the concept. Maybe a specific answer to a couple of my specific questions would help.

1) What if tweak the devices in a BF (naval, guns, air support, combat squads, etc.) using in game devices, will the unit function?

2) If I change the weapons to a more historic time table on a ship?

3) If I accelerate or delay a ship, BF or some other units arrival?

4) What if I want to further break down an Alaskan Army Regiment (say the 4th or any other) to companies and reallocate them historically?

Obviously these type of changes are and can be done for mods but now I am not sure if those type of changes also include code changes to get them to WAD.

[Andy Mac]

1) Yes it will function changing the data fields at the device level though may result in some weirdness e.g. adding 10 extra support squads to an LCU will work in game, adding a new TOE upgrade for an LCU is fine, totally rewriting a TOE is fine (however changing for example the load cost of those 10 support squads can have some weird game impacts as I recently found out)

2) If you are describing changing a ship upgrade timetable yes that will work just make sure all the devices are available at the same time as the earliest date allowed by all the ship upgrades that use it.

3) Thats fine moving dates of LCU's is easy to fix.

4) Thats also fine

These types of changes do not require code changes just be a little wary of changes to device levels - in many ways the device file is the one you need to be most carefull of the code will interpret things specific to the device file not always in the way expected

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

1) Yes it will function changing the data fields at the device level though may result in some weirdness e.g. adding 10 extra support squads to an LCU will work in game, adding a new TOE upgrade for an LCU is fine, totally rewriting a TOE is fine (however changing for example the load cost of those 10 support squads can have some weird game impacts as I recently found out)

2) If you are describing changing a ship upgrade timetable yes that will work just make sure all the devices are available at the same time as the earliest date allowed by all the ship upgrades that use it.

3) Thats fine moving dates of LCU's is easy to fix.

4) Thats also fine

These types of changes do not require code changes just be a little wary of changes to device levels - in many ways the device file is the one you need to be most carefull of the code will interpret things specific to the device file not always in the way expected

Thank you, I feel better knowing all the research and resulting changes won't completely just be eye candy.

[Andy Mac]

One warning I would give you will need to adjust the Ai scripts if you are intending to use any mod with the AI.

At the very least test it.

Things like Base Force TOE's especially can have weird and wonderfull AI impacts.

e.g. Centpac overstacking atolls or having the assigned base force for a critical centpac base not having enough Av Support or no Engineers

So you do need to be really carefull when messing about with TOE's for base forces or seabees (or the japanese eng ubnits)

Make sure you run any game AI v AI out to 46 checking it at least every 3 months to make sure that the Ai functions

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

One warning I would give you will need to adjust the Ai scripts if you are intending to use any mod with the AI.

At the very least test it.

Things like Base Force TOE's especially can have weird and wonderfull AI impacts.

e.g. Centpac overstacking atolls or having the assigned base force for a critical centpac base not having enough Av Support or no Engineers

So you do need to be really carefull when messing about with TOE's for base forces or seabees (or the japanese eng ubnits)

Make sure you run any game AI v AI out to 46 checking it at least every 3 months to make sure that the Ai functions

Practicaly all my adjustments are for the Alaska area, however, I will make some adjustments for some of the bases in the Central and South Pacific for thost BF that have no Naval Support and to many of the 40mm AA. I am including many new ships, but, that many not be necessary depending on Da Babes mod.

Thanks again.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
Code, Data, having a little problem wrapping my arms around the concept. Maybe a specific answer to a couple of my specific questions would help.

Here’s some guidelines – not rules, but …
There’s some things that the code uses to calculate combat results. Those algorithms are sorta hidden, so the inputs shouldn’t be changed much. Those inputs are in the Device file: Range, Acc, Pen, Eff, Ceiling, Armor, Dud Rate, Anti-Arm, Anti-Soft. Clearly, using a rule of reason, you can change these things, just be circumspect. Changing these very much often has unintended consequences.

Dates, and build rates, and pools, and such, are pretty much don’t care propositions, so long as things line up. Changing Squad size (squad LC in the Device file) changes troop load cost and the # of ships required to lift a unit, and the load/unload rates (which are a function of size), and whether or not a unit will fit on an Atoll. Changing a Gun LC changes the Cargo load cost, but remember that guns are small, medium, large, with 1x, 2x and 3x the costs, depending on load cost being 5 or less, 9 or less, or more than 9.

As Andy says, the OOB is pretty much open territory. But certain things have importance to the game code. These are AV, Troop load cost, Cargo load cost, Total troops (for Atoll population). This is where the Device load cost becomes important.

Anything and everything in a TOE can be changed without breaking the “Base Algorithm”. It might drive the AI nuts, but it won’t break the base routines. But there are things to consider. Changing # of squads is a no-brainer, but it also changes troop load cost, # of ships required to lift the unit, load/unload rates, whether or not a unit will fit on an Atoll, the amount of Support squads required (which again affects everything else), and also changes the unit’s AV. Adding weapons (either amount or new ones) is also a no-brainer, but it also changes troop load cost, # of ships, load/unload rates, whether or not a unit will fit on an Atoll, the amount of Support squads required, etc...

I guess the guidelines should be:

Check Total Troops (Infantry + Other) for appropriate sizing for Atoll fit (either alone or in combination with other naturally accompanying units).

Check Total Load Cost (Troop LC + Cargo LC) for adequate percentage and loadability on a reasonable number of vessels.

Check AV: not so much the absolute value, but the value as a % of the AV of similar opposing units (468 v 414 ain’t bad: 621 v 322 is very bad, unless you want it that way).

Now you put all this into the box, and you can see what I mean by adjusting data in view of the code. You can define a Japanese Division with 432 infantry squads of 13 men each, or 324 infantry squads of 17 men each. Both give you 5500-5600 total troops, both are perfectly “historically” accurate (assuming the firepower gets the same % push), but one version requires a huge Support differential, can’t load very efficiently, has an arbitrarily large relative AV … The other, equally “historical” version, can load within historical parameters, requires a more accurate amount of Support manpower, has a better game relative AV, and …

I know this is verbose, but there is this tendency to say “My book says the “historical” number is 432.” Okay. But 324 is equally historical (if done right), and it works better with the code. That’s the real difference between “data” and “code”: massaging data to keep it accurate, but allowing it to work within the constraints of the code.

I really, really, hope this helps.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
Code, Data, having a little problem wrapping my arms around the concept. Maybe a specific answer to a couple of my specific questions would help.

Here’s some guidelines – not rules, but …
There’s some things that the code uses to calculate combat results. Those algorithms are sorta hidden, so the inputs shouldn’t be changed much. Those inputs are in the Device file: Range, Acc, Pen, Eff, Ceiling, Armor, Dud Rate, Anti-Arm, Anti-Soft. Clearly, using a rule of reason, you can change these things, just be circumspect. Changing these very much often has unintended consequences.

Dates, and build rates, and pools, and such, are pretty much don’t care propositions, so long as things line up. Changing Squad size (squad LC in the Device file) changes troop load cost and the # of ships required to lift a unit, and the load/unload rates (which are a function of size), and whether or not a unit will fit on an Atoll. Changing a Gun LC changes the Cargo load cost, but remember that guns are small, medium, large, with 1x, 2x and 3x the costs, depending on load cost being 5 or less, 9 or less, or more than 9.

As Andy says, the OOB is pretty much open territory. But certain things have importance to the game code. These are AV, Troop load cost, Cargo load cost, Total troops (for Atoll population). This is where the Device load cost becomes important.

Anything and everything in a TOE can be changed without breaking the “Base Algorithm”. It might drive the AI nuts, but it won’t break the base routines. But there are things to consider. Changing # of squads is a no-brainer, but it also changes troop load cost, # of ships required to lift the unit, load/unload rates, whether or not a unit will fit on an Atoll, the amount of Support squads required (which again affects everything else), and also changes the unit’s AV. Adding weapons (either amount or new ones) is also a no-brainer, but it also changes troop load cost, # of ships, load/unload rates, whether or not a unit will fit on an Atoll, the amount of Support squads required, etc...

I guess the guidelines should be:

Check Total Troops (Infantry + Other) for appropriate sizing for Atoll fit (either alone or in combination with other naturally accompanying units).

Check Total Load Cost (Troop LC + Cargo LC) for adequate percentage and loadability on a reasonable number of vessels.

Check AV: not so much the absolute value, but the value as a % of the AV of similar opposing units (468 v 414 ain’t bad: 621 v 322 is very bad, unless you want it that way).

Now you put all this into the box, and you can see what I mean by adjusting data in view of the code. You can define a Japanese Division with 432 infantry squads of 13 men each, or 324 infantry squads of 17 men each. Both give you 5500-5600 total troops, both are perfectly “historically” accurate (assuming the firepower gets the same % push), but one version requires a huge Support differential, can’t load very efficiently, has an arbitrarily large relative AV … The other, equally “historical” version, can load within historical parameters, requires a more accurate amount of Support manpower, has a better game relative AV, and …

I know this is verbose, but there is this tendency to say “My book says the “historical” number is 432.” Okay. But 324 is equally historical (if done right), and it works better with the code. That’s the real difference between “data” and “code”: massaging data to keep it accurate, but allowing it to work within the constraints of the code.

I really, really, hope this helps.

Yes it does and thanks for the detailed reply.

[NormS3]

Engine question.

I added a few engines for the japanese (for captured P-40s, Hurricanes, ect), this seems to have messed up the engine pool, as many of the original engines now come up blank on the airplane/engine pool screen and are not producable.

Obviously I did something wrong, am i not allowed to add addition engines or is there a step that i missed?