Defending India

[crsutton]

It is 4/01/42 and it looks like a big Japanese push into India is in the works. 10,000 Japanese are in Akyab but they have a 0 port to deal with, and Burma is full of Japanese aircraft. Signet has alerted me to a few big Japanese divisions moving to Rangoon after the fall of Java. I can't see any use for them there unless he is going to push further. India is still pretty weak. Units are fleshing out but still lack experiece and I need tanks. I moved some American bombers and fighter units there but just dont have the aircraft replacments to fight an attritional battle with his AF. No clue as to if he is going to move into the Bengal plain or go after Colombo.

Also, the manual says I get extra units if he moves into North India. What the hell constitutes North India and what kind of troops will I see?

Any ideas.

[Smeulders]

North India is very North India, the line is one hex South of Delhi. If he manages to get there (he shouldn't) you'll be seeing multiple divisions arriving in Aden and Abadan. More info can be found in the editor (In locations, search India Inv Reinforce), the units under that header will become available. I'm not posting the list in case people don't want any surprises spoiled.

[Q-Ball]

crsutton, is this a PBEM? If so, please post how it works out. I personally think a limited move into India is very possible in April, but an outright conquest is completely impossible in AE. Possible in WITP (John 3rd and I almost did it in our 2x2, and we took everything but Karachi and Bombay), but in AE, I think anything more than a short-term conquest isn't feasible.

If this is a PBEM, I would welcome a Japanese attack into India. Unless he lands on Ceylon, I don't see how he can cut off and destroy many units. If he pushes you back, then what? To hold a big space like India, the IJA will have to commit alot of troops, units that won't be available to face the USA, who is the real opponent.

[Canoerebel]

Even Ceylon should be tough.  The Allies do get a stout amount of troops and aircraft in the India area and should be able to adequately defend India proper while also posting 600 to 800 AV on Ceylon. 
 
Japan can get a lodgement somewhere or other, but from what I've seen a major Japanese invasion of India would be just what the Allies need.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

crsutton, is this a PBEM? If so, please post how it works out. I personally think a limited move into India is very possible in April, but an outright conquest is completely impossible in AE. Possible in WITP (John 3rd and I almost did it in our 2x2, and we took everything but Karachi and Bombay), but in AE, I think anything more than a short-term conquest isn't feasible.

If this is a PBEM, I would welcome a Japanese attack into India. Unless he lands on Ceylon, I don't see how he can cut off and destroy many units. If he pushes you back, then what? To hold a big space like India, the IJA will have to commit alot of troops, units that won't be available to face the USA, who is the real opponent.

I wouldn´t say outright impossible in PBEM. Harder than in WITP but not impossible at all IMO. There is of course one BIG condition that has to be met. No house rule about moving out units from Kwangtung and China. And you have to reduce or knock out the Chinese. And then? Then you will have more than just a couple of divisions. I would move them overland into India as this seems to be even easier than in WITP and you couldn´t transport those restricted units by ship anyway. Throw in four divs from the Southern Area Army and all the tank units as "reserve" that could be thrown at more or less any target at the coast. Together with this add in a couple of Allied mistakes earlier in the campaign and voila. I´m sure we will see Japanese players doing the "impossible". If not, at least I will try it at some point in a PBEM probably. [;)]

[xj900uk]

So far I am playing against the Japanese AI,  it's 20.01.09 and his ground forces haven't moved an inch towards Burma.  So far it's been content with sending over lots of unescorted bombers to hit the bases at Tovoy, Port Blair and Rangoon - my Buffallo's have had a rather rare field day coupled with with the RAF contingent of the AVC.  One Buffallo pilot at Rangoon even leads the pilot ratings with 9 confirmed kills in about 6 weeks of quite heavy air raids

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

So far I am playing against the Japanese AI,  it's 20.01.09 and his ground forces haven't moved an inch towards Burma.

I would have thought those IJA would have gotten tired of sitting in the jungle for 67 years and have moved SOME by now! [;)]

[Canoerebel]

If the Japanese steamroll China, then certainly they can appear in India in vast numbers, but I doubt that will be the case:
 
1.  It sounds like the China situation has the full attention of developers so that, sooner or later, the desired "quagmire" will be in place there.
2.  Even if political points aren't addressed by developers, most players will employ a house rule that prevents use of Kwangtung in China (or at least outside of China) without paying political points.
3.  Traveling overland between China and Burma is still slow.
4.  Supplying Japanese troops in India overland through the Burma jungle is tough and it looks like it will get tougher as the developers work on addressing the movement of supply.
 
I doubt India will ever be at risk except possibly in games in which the Allied player is a newbie.

[xj900uk]

Sorry, meant 20.01.42.  In the meantime the outnumbered RAF is taking to the skies in its blimp-like Buffallo's and building up some useful experiences & aces against the IJAAF Sallies and IJN Nellies.  The few times escorts have come over, even Nates, then the Buffallo's have been largely ineffective...
BTW,  a Swordfish on naval search operating out of Rangoon last night managed to shoot down a Sally!

[Q-Ball]

RE: INDIA CONQUEST IN AE:
I would agree with castor it's possible IF there are no restrictions on Kwantung units. You can open a land connection that would allow you to march overland through Burma. It would take awhile, but it's possible.

You would have to start that project right from the opening gun, with an eye toward clearing the rail line through Changsha and out to Kunming, then MAYBE you could have Kwantung units crossing into Assam in May. An alternative is to clear a path toward the Vietnamese border, and move through Thailand; that's probably easier. But as Canoerebel says, almost noone will play a PBEM without a restriction on Kwantung forces. I wouldn't do it.

Without the Kwantung Army and/or restricted units from China, I think it's impossible. I would like to see someone try in a PBEM, write an AAR, and prove me wrong![:D]

It might be worth looking at, because there are alot of problems with a conquest of Australia in AE as well (by this I mean taking all of it). The forces defending it are weaker, but invading Australia proper burns alot of fuel, and ulitmately you can't isolate it like you can WITP. You can make it difficult to get to, but you can't isolate it completely unless you control the coast of Australia.

New Zealand IMO is still doable. The biggest problem with NZ is that a conquest would consume pretty much all your fuel production for 3 months.

[John Lansford]

I'm in a CG vs the Japanese AI and I'm up to 10/42.  So far the AI has moved up to Akyab and Cox's Bazaar and just stopped.  It took those two bases months ago and since then nothing more, other than nuisance raids of 12-20 2E bombers escorted by 70-100 fighters over my bases.  Fighter losses are high but manageable so far; I've got a strong dug in force at the next base from Cox's Bazaar with full divisions of Indian, Aussie and British infantry there backed by multiple artillery and tank units. 
 
I'm not sure what the AI intends to do next; I've taken Lunga and held Canton, lost Timor and the other DEI islands, but I've not seen any further expansion attempts anywhere.  It did land a weak brigade at Dutch Harbor (!!) a few weeks ago but then evacuated it after I chased off the supply TF's with some DD's.  It looks like it's time for me to go on the offensive somewhere...

[Lecivius]

It evacuated a force?  I have yet to see that.  That's impressive.

[xj900uk]

It would be nice (future patch, anyone?) if the option was there for the controlling player to build up the road network and rail-links of areas that he controlled.  In RL this certainly happened in Japanese-occupied Burma (I'm thinking of the Death Railway)

[stldiver]

I am experiancing the invasion of India from two sides.

In my PBEM vs Scott (Spam vs Saki) I initially landed at Diamond Harbor with 3 plus divisions which has expanded to over 7 plus and I have captured most of the bases around Calcutta and Burma area. I was able to achieve this Mar 20th landing. My intention was two fold, engage and destroy indian and British/Aussie troops. As there replacement rates are low, I looked at this as delaying their build up later.

My second objective was the resources which there are plenty in that area. It is the end of July and already the allied forces are massing around my areas. In the next 6 months I will be faced with the decision of pulling out, but I have achieved my two objectives, there was never the goal to conquer India, just mutilate their armies and take their resources.

In my other PBEM vs Tomik (no AAR), Tomik landed at Chittagong on Mar 10th with 4 divisions plus and pushed 2 div's plus armoured brigade in lvl 3 forts out and is starting to advance out, we are to Mar 24th. His objectives probably similar to mine vs Scott, he will have play room till mid July and thats when reinfocements will stabilise the front. It is very tense being on the other side, but I view India like Russia, I have plenty of territory to retreat back to and eventually I get more troops. My main objective is to wear him down, and not get my troops destroyed till experiance is up and I can claim air dominance.

Thus in two experiances I cannot say the Japanese can run rampant, but they definatly can invade as early as Mar 10th with force and there is not a lot I can do about it as you have to defend 4 critical areas Ceylon, Madras, Diamond Harbor and Chittagong. You can defend 2 well, but not all 4. Thus Japan can get ashore the question is what objective does the Japanese player wish to achieve?

1)Destruction of troops when weak and low experiance
2)HI and resource pillaging
3)Another bufferzone to stall the push back.

No matter what, there will be enough troops late 42 to run an endaround thus its not a permanent position unless you go whole hog with everything.

[Q-Ball]

stldiver, good post. An invasion of NE India/Assam is very realistic. In fact, if the Allies choose to reinforce Burma, it's probably the best response to that.

In my PBEM as Japan, my opponent didn't pour a ton of troops into Burma. He did stay. I considered doing exactly what you did, but ended up with a small hook on Akyab and Cox's Bazaar that didn't surround any Allied troops, but did encourage a general withdrawl out of Burma.

It is a good idea to attrite the Brits. It's a good idea for the Brits to try to avoid this early-on. You are right, it's like Russia, the Brits can just retreat and let you have it, and ultimately you can't defend it later on at all. And while you have those 7 divisions in India, you probably aren't conquering much else.

[Andy Mac]

Assuming PP rules are followed i.e. no China Army or Kwantang units

Is India Vulnerable I think yes same as in stock if an Allied player over committs to Burma or Java then yes India is IMO vulnerable.

But Vulnerable to what ?

A raid yes
A spoiling raid ie. what STLdriver outlined above most definitetly
An overall conquest - maybe but the price is no longer IMO worth it.

1. It will take longer than stock and its a morass - you cannot corner RN or even really the Indian Army easily
2. Indian Army gets reinforced if you go to far north and the reinforcements are major - ignore the formations - the equipment reinforment to bring up other formations is big - e.g. Tanks, Infantry, Arty devices that can give fresh resistance to worn out units
3. RAF gets an injection of aircraft Hurricanes, Spitfires, Wellingtons ion numbers are diverted to deal with the crisis - India gets stronger

But for me the biggest issue with an all out conquest now is TIME it can probably be done certainly in Scen 2 where the Japanese get 4 ish extra Divs but the lack of superhighway railways make it far slower and the need to cover flanks will pull in LCU's from other theatres leaving the japanese vulnerable to an early Marianas or maybe Truk offensive

A raid doable oh yes - there was a reason the Australians had to garrison Ceylon. - India is was and probably remains weak in early 42 but it doesnt last