Absolute DEI Defense

[vonTirpitz]

I have read a few discussions regarding this topic but really wanted to know what other players think of this strategy. Playing the Japanese in PBEM I was slowed greatly early on by aggressive allied surface fleets destroying smaller amphibious invasions.

Ultimately the KB was destroyed in early Feb. 42 by a massive combined allied air combat force and supporting Java based aircraft and surface fleets composed of nearly everything the US, British and Allies had in game (basically every allied aircraft carrier in play was in the same TF).

With Japanese pretty much out of the game now I am curious as to how realistic this strategy really is. Could the dutch base in Java actually support USN and British Air and Surface forces that well in Feb 42? And the Japanese are forced to pay PP to move from restricted theaters. Would the US have allowed its carriers to go to the Indian Ocean so early in the war? Would the British committed to the DEI so vigorously? Should there be political penalties?

In historical hindsight this strategy could have brought the war to a sudden stop less than three months after Pearl Harbor. Could it have been done? Would the US, British, Australian, Indian, Dutch and Chinese be so well coordinated as to work together smoothly and succeed?

As I said it is an effective strategy and I commend my opponent for a devastating win. And despite the questions above it is obvious that the Japanese never have a true element of surprise or momentum in the face of a true game master. Even the overhyped KB is useless against such a strategy. And if the Japanese player stays conservative and slowly probes into the DEI it will take too long and gain too little in the short time that they supposedly have the "advantage"

This is more of a curiosity than anything. Perhaps another Japanese player has a fool proof counter-strategy but short of racing the KB west knowing that the Allies are doing this it is a certain waste of resources and time to try and prevent.

What are your thoughts? Thanks in advance for the input.

[Q-Ball]

Well, IRL not sure how realistic this is, but you could say that about alot of force commitments. I think it's totally kosher within the game.

Who did you play? That's a pretty interesting strategy to move all Naval forces there. The only real ship-killing planes availalbe to the Allies though in 2/1942 are the USN CV air, and even then, the most you could get there is 4 CV's worth. Plus, what surface ships did he use? Cruisers? That's mostly what you have available that early as Allies.

I applaud you for admitting you got crushed. I bet next time that happens, you can create a meat grinder to destroy the Allied fleets, because I think you can at that stage if he does that again.

[vonTirpitz]

Actually, I thought I had my KB CAP set to 40% but the KB only launched 12 zeroes (I have had this happen several times in game).

The USN CV's launched all of their air assets supported but Dutch and British fighters so the KB was wasted by Dauntless and Devastators. The counter attack got about 2-3 US and British carriers but that doesn't really matter when the KB is destroyed. Allies can stop anything else in the pacific with one carrier.

As for a so-called meat grinder I have doubts that is possible. He easily destroyed IJN cruisers and destroyers in surface combat even when outnumbered 2-1. The IJN was really useless and asleep in this one. [>:] Even the Zeroes couldn't shoot down any Russian SB3s in this game. [>:]


Morning Air attack on TF, near Semarang at 52,101

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12



Allied aircraft
Albacore I x 18
Fulmar II x 8
F2A-3 Buffalo x 56
F4F-3A Wildcat x 25
F4F-3 Wildcat x 67
SB2U-3 Vindicator x 18
SBD-2 Dauntless x 54
SBD-3 Dauntless x 90
TBD-1 Devastator x 26


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Albacore I: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged
Fulmar II: 1 destroyed
F2A-3 Buffalo: 3 destroyed
F4F-3A Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
SB2U-3 Vindicator: 2 damaged
SBD-2 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 12 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 4 damaged
TBD-1 Devastator: 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 9, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 9, heavy fires
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Tanikaze
BB Hiei, Bomb hits 3, on fire
DD Shiranui, Bomb hits 1
DD Kagero, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Isokaze
BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 7, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Akebono, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Tone, Bomb hits 4, on fire
DD Urakaze, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Arare
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 4, on fire
DD Yamagumo, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chikuma
DD Akigumo
DD Hamakaze



Aircraft Attacking:
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
17 x F2A-3 Buffalo sweeping at 10000 feet
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 6000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
12 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 5000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
12 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 10000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 6000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 6000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
10 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 6000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
16 x F4F-3A Wildcat sweeping at 10000 feet
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
14 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 10000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
17 x Albacore I launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Mk XII Torpedo
7 x Fulmar II sweeping at 15000 feet
8 x SB2U-3 Vindicator diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x F4F-3 Wildcat sweeping at 10000 feet
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 5000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 5000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x F4F-3 Wildcat sweeping at 10000 feet
10 x F4F-3 Wildcat sweeping at 10000 feet
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 6000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SB2U-3 Vindicator diving from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
3 x F2A-3 Buffalo sweeping at 10000 feet
7 x F2A-3 Buffalo sweeping at 10000 feet
2 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
2 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 6000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
2 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
6 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
2 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 5000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
2 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
2 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
2 x SB2U-3 Vindicator diving from 6000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 5000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SB2U-3 Vindicator diving from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 5000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Akagi-1 with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
Kaga-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
Soryu-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
Hiryu-1 with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
Shokaku-1 with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
Zuikaku-1 with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Hiryu
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Kagero
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Akagi
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Soryu
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Kaga
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Zuikaku
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring BB Kirishima
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Akebono
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Yamagumo
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Tone

[findmeifyoucan]

I think the problem is that you did not match his surface fleet that he was commiting to the theatre. You have the advantage of Carrier Force but also need surface fleets to back you up. Let them do the "meat grinding" as buddy indicates and let your carrier force finish it off and lick up the spoils.
In my game I am also up against a very aggressive American player but am matching him ship for ship and have carriers to back me up. Yes, I lost a few small ampib forces in the beginning but have adjusted and backing them up with surface fleets now which makes it much harder to find your transports. Most of the time he is finding my surface fleets instead and my carriers are adding an extra punch. These are only my minor carriers too as it is only the first week of the war. I can hardly wait till my major Carrier Force gets there! The Japanese have a superior Naval Surface fleet to start the war so why not use it? Also don't forget your submarines, they can be a pain in the neck especially when hanging around the same area where your surface and Carrier fleets are operating. Not to mention your land based AC's like Nells and Bettys put on Naval attack at low altitude!! Other ideas, try throwing a couple of cruisers and a few destroyers in as escorts to your transport fleets like actually stacking them in with your fleet just in case he does get through to your transports.

[vonTirpitz]

Perhaps. About 20 of my warships were already badly damaged by the end of the December because of the ANZAC and RN forces sweeping through the DEI. I had to port my carriers for a few days due to system damage skyrocketing to 9-12 points after 3 weeks of sailing. By January he was pretty solid in Java with the naval and air assets.

[findmeifyoucan]

What did you do with your small Carrier Force that started in Japan at the beginning of the war? Also did you try in Port bombardments on bases where the Allies seemed to accumulate an airforce?

[vonTirpitz]

I think I got us a bit off topic here. The surface fleet isn't what sank the KB.

Anyway, I am not as interested in discussing my failed strategy or the lack of capability of the IJN. I was just curious about the strategy of the allies massing in the DEI. Since the Allies can not lose in the long run it seems to be a good way of screwing the Japanese early in the game. The Allies will replace pretty much everything they lose in 42 so is this the best strategy for the Allies to use? Seems to be.

BTW: Check out the Allied Casualties my log showed after the counter attack.

Allied ground losses:
222823 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 0 (0 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Now that is some serious FOW at work. lol

[pompack]

Bluntly, IMHO if the Allies want to mass all of their carrier assets in the DEI in Feb42 the Japanese should hold a national celebration.

Mass the Japanese carriers into a minimum of three TFs (all in the same hex in follow mode, zero react, use more if you can find enough good leaders), create two fast BB and five CA TFs. Wait until Singers is available as a base for BB and torp resupply. The SAGs are both bait and to suppress the LBA; three should operate one hex in advance of KB as a three hex wide screen (aka bait) with the others following KB. Bring all four CS (one per CV TF) and use for scouting and recon of land bases. Go cruising and hope that the Allies come to play. Use SAGs to bombard air bases with identified dangerous a/c (B17 and swordfish mostly). Small aside, NEVER use your precious Vals to attack bases and keep your Kates at 15k for base attacks (or antishipping attacks for that matter).

Even if you lose three fleet carriers and three light carriers (and I would expect to loose only half that) you should own the Pacific after you sink three USN CVs and any Brits that show up.

Just one dog's opinion (the spaniel, the little pom is much more aggressive) [:D]

[Blackhorse]

I don't think it is the best strategy for the Allies to use -- unless you are not expecting it, in which case it can be (and apparently was) a war-winner.

In early '42 you can match/defeat the Allies combined ground and naval air forces in the DEI with your Land Based Air alone. Bringing in the KB should just help "make the rubble bounce," to quote Mr. Churchill in a different context.

Would the Allies attempt it IRL? Hmmm . . . IMHO, unlikely, but not out-of-the-question. The US would not have made a major commitment of its ground troops to the DEI, but concentrating its carriers for an allied combined-ops might have been considered.

[Ametysth]

Against human I wouldn't try holding Java too hard. All Japanese player needs is Balikpapan and entire Java turns into giant POW camp. Size 4 AF full of mitsubishi bombers and Zeros, close enough to sweep entire island and attack both ends to prevent supplies/escapes. Balikpapan in itself is relatively easy to invade, especially with KB support.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Ametysth

Against human I wouldn't try holding Java too hard. All Japanese player needs is Balikpapan and entire Java turns into giant POW camp. Size 4 AF full of mitsubishi bombers and Zeros, close enough to sweep entire island and attack both ends to prevent supplies/escapes. Balikpapan in itself is relatively easy to invade, especially with KB support.

I respectfully disagree. An Allied player that keeps Java will be in prime position to threaten oil fields at Balikpapan and Palembang and hold Soerbaja and Batavia indefinitely. This will cripple Japanese oil production. Rather than keeping the necessary forces on hand for the IJ to keep Java in check, the IJ forces are much better off taking Java and eradicating this threat on their internal lines.

WRT the original poster: throwing everything as Allies into forward defense of DEI is not only unrealistic but potentially disastrous if things go awry. Once those surface ships and a/c carriers are destroyed, unless the IJ is defeated in detail in kind, there are no defenses to prevent seaborne invasion of Australia, India, the Hawaiian islands or even some areas of CONUS. Likely the Americans would never have cast the dice this way-keeping nothing at all in reserve for strategically critical areas.

This defense is drawing to the ultimate inside straight in poker. You might get really lucky a few times, but more often you'll be left with a pretty poor hand.

Without knowing your opponent, I would have expected a resignation would the events of his brilliant offensive turned against him. This seems to be the mindset of the 'I win it all now or I go home' type.

[Smeulders]

True, if you manage to keep Java, you win as allies. The chances of doing so are just very, very slim in a PBEM.

[Runnersan]

I have the same thing. But in my game there was also several mistakes that I made.

My opponent moved all surface ships to DEI and he is very efficient in using them. My CA's and CL's can't hit his ships, and almost all naval combats are won by him. Even when theoretically i have quality advanatge.
KB was damaged and my Bettys and Nells were decimated by CAP (my bad, they should fly only on Zero's range) and other bombers are usless against him (I had attack when my Vals attacked his DD's, they standed dead in water and i gained almost no hits).

But also there was a price for his high commitment in DEI. I almost without fight captured Port Moresby and Torres Island.

I forgot to ask, did Zero in 1942 was really so poor in fighting against B-17, Liberators and B-24 (5 this eliminated my 20 Zeros from fight)?

[Miller]

My opponent grouped all his US and RN carriers and attacked the KB which was undocked at Soerabaja in March 42, luckily for me my badly damaged carriers automatically disbanded in port the next turn, otherwise I would have lost several.....I did not consider it a "gamey" move by my opponent in any way, very bold and risky yes......

[rockmedic109]

I don't think "gamey" would be the right word.  But I doubt that the U.S. would have sent all it's carriers to protect the colonial holding of a country that no longer is in control of it's own homeland.  Certainly not while leaving it's own assets vulnerable.  When you add in the lack of coordination between U.S. and other forces, I think it would be a disaster in the making.  There was never even an attempt at resupplying the Philippines. 

[FatR]

I think the patch under which the game was played is important. Under patch 1 Japanese surface units below CAs frankly sucked in naval combat, and in the unpatched game it looked like all of them sucked (did not play enough to confirm for certain). Patch 2 makes things significantly easier for Japanese in light forces combat.

Of course, the skill and experience of the player matter too. Allies can seize the tactical initiative and bring superior forces into each individual fight if a Japanese player is careless.

As about carrier battles, no, I don't think that it is possible to win against KB in early 1942, except by extreme luck. Allied carrier pilots and planes are not very good at this point, so, unless a raid proceeds with minimal disruption in air combat phase, they won't score much.

[findmeifyoucan]

The thing is if the Allies commit that much to Java then the Japanese would have free reign near East Coast Australia. If this happens then say goodbye to Rebaul, Port Moresby and even Caledonia. With all these in Japanese hands you can forget about getting any supply to Australia from West Coast USA. Oh dear, this means no supply or fuel for Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane or any of these large ports opening yourself up for possible invasions by the Japanese all the way down east coast Australia, ouch.

[Lifer]

I wouldn't call the strategy gamey in the sense that the Allied player was taking advantage of a flaw in the game.  It is certainly a one shot strategy that will never work again with the same opponent.  I believe that if the strategy backfired and he lost big then your turns would go unanswered.  The game allows these type of moves because there is no penalty in terms of the politics of the countries involved and the personalities of the leaders to do something not probable IRL.  Self imposed or house rules that specify assignment to HQs that are responsible for an area could be done (no CentPac in ABDA area without PP expenditure).

[Ametysth]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Ametysth

Against human I wouldn't try holding Java too hard. All Japanese player needs is Balikpapan and entire Java turns into giant POW camp. Size 4 AF full of mitsubishi bombers and Zeros, close enough to sweep entire island and attack both ends to prevent supplies/escapes. Balikpapan in itself is relatively easy to invade, especially with KB support.

I respectfully disagree. An Allied player that keeps Java will be in prime position to threaten oil fields at Balikpapan and Palembang and hold Soerbaja and Batavia indefinitely. This will cripple Japanese oil production. Rather than keeping the necessary forces on hand for the IJ to keep Java in check, the IJ forces are much better off taking Java and eradicating this threat on their internal lines.

Why would IJ player care, if someone bombs those oil fields in first one or two months of 1942? Quite frankly, if allies spend their missions on strategic role at this point, Japanese player should open a bottle of bubbly as those bombers are not bombing something that would actually slow him down.

If Allies at the same time can't move ships through Java Sea, it is their lines that are cut and they can't sortie with their surface force (with speed anyway). Advances to Timor, Borneo and even Sumatra can easily make Java a prison to allied forces, which Japan can take at their leisure. If Allied player decides to toss a lot of short legged planes on that island, I foresee a lot of destroyed air groups.

[Mike Scholl]

There is an old rule of warfare that says you can always surprise your enemy by doing something incredibly stupid.  Nobody plans for that eventuality,  and the natural tendency initially is to attribute your problems to some deep and clever plan you haven't figured out yet.  As was pointed out above, it will generally only work once..., but that doesn't help with the embarressment  of having it happen to you.