minor surrender conditions bug

[Dancing Bear]

Hi all

I think I noticed a minor error in surender conditons. In a game we are playing, Scotland has become a conquored minor of France. However, as a nation at war with France, Scotland does not appear on the list of minor countries that can be selected as a peace condition, while all of France's other minor countries do.

I think this means that conquored home territories of another major country are not appearing on the lists of minors that can be taken as peace conditions.

Has anyone else seen this situation?
DB.

[Trax]

Except for GB a nation would need a corps in Scotland to take it from France. Scotland should be on the list of the GB player.

[Dancing Bear]

Trax, is that right?

Scotland would be a British province, but only a minor conquored nation to France? Or does Scotland become a French province?

(France does receive all its money and manpower, so maybe it is a province).

[ndrose]

If France is receiving manpower from Scotland, that would be a bug. It should draw money but not manpower.

[Dancing Bear]

I can't tell if France is receiving manpower. The question is should I be able to select Scotland as a regular minor nation to take, or is it treated like a province requiring corps to be present in Scotland?

[ereiser]

I'm the France in the game DB is talking about.  I am not recieving the manpower for Scotland, just the money. 
 
I believe that because Scotland is a province of GB, anyone else trying to take it must have a corps in it, or the province in question must be adjacent to the MP's home nation (impossible for anyone except GB in this case).
 
ER

[Marshall Ellis]

Scotland is a major province of GB so you should be collecting money only!

[Dancing Bear]

The question is, once Scotland becomes a conquored minor of France, should a third party (Prussia) require a corps in Scotland to select it as a peace condition, or should it be like anyother minor country and appear on the list of minors that can be taken even if there are no corps present?

[Marshall Ellis]

It would not be treated as a minor so you would need to have adjacent friendly territory OR a friendly unbesieged corps present.

[Dancing Bear]

This selected ceded major powers provinces controlled by new major power (i.e. Scotland controlled byFrance example). The rules are not clear, they state that Scotland conquored by France (as a peace condition) should be treated "exactly as if it were a conquored minor country", i.e. it should appear on the list of minors to be selected as a peace condition, even if the victor does not have forces in it (rule 13.3.2 in the matrix game or 10.2.2 in the original board game rule book).

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

It would not be treated as a minor so you would need to have adjacent friendly territory OR a friendly unbesieged corps present.

[delatbabel]

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

This selected ceded major powers provinces controlled by new major power (i.e. Scotland controlled byFrance example). The rules are not clear, they state that Scotland conquored by France (as a peace condition) should be treated "exactly as if it were a conquored minor country", i.e. it should appear on the list of minors to be selected as a peace condition, even if the victor does not have forces in it (rule 13.3.2 in the matrix game or 10.2.2 in the original board game rule book).

The rule you quote refers to conquest. So, for example, Russia (if at war with France) could land a corps in Edinburgh and conquer Scotland from the French. It would then become a ceded province belonging to Russia. In terms of ceding as part of a victory condition, a province is a province is a province and therefore to gain it by ceding you need to have corps present or it needs to be adjacent to your territory.

[Dancing Bear]

Is there a seperate rule for peace conditions? How do they distinguish between the two for peace terms?

[NeverMan]

Isn't a ceded province considered a minor country? I'm pretty sure that's right, so a province is only a province if owned by the orig player.

[Marshall Ellis]

I believe Neverman is correct here.

[Dancing Bear]

In which case, if a province captured during a peace is a minor country, then it should be available to be taken as a peace condition from the conquorer in a later war by another power, whether or not that power has corps are present in minor country/province.

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I believe Neverman is correct here.

[Marshall Ellis]

Aha! Should a conquered MP prov be available as a minor? A std MP prov must be adjacent to friendly territory or have a friendly corps present! BUT should a conquered MP prov go under the same requirements???

[Dancing Bear]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Aha! Should a conquered MP prov be available as a minor? A std MP prov must be adjacent to friendly territory or have a friendly corps present! BUT should a conquered MP prov go under the same requirements???

That is the question. The rules indicate for conquest that a conquored MP prov should be treated as a minor country, so presumably it is the same for peace conditions. (rule 13.3.2 in the matrix game or 10.2.2 in the original board game rule book).