TOAW Classic Barbarossa

[nix]

Greetings.

I have owned TOAW for years but rarely played. Recently I started playing and have become hooked. It's a great game.

After playing the Korea tutorial, I moved on to the Barbarossa 41 scenario. I believe I have a decent grasp on combat, combat rounds, supply, etc. I also have a firm background on the historical outcome through reading on the subject.

I've become frustrated after a couple of attempts playing as the Axis. I've found it nearly impossible to even get close to a historical outcome, even within the first 10 turns or so. I usually make great progress in the center, taking Minsk by turn 4 or 5. I also have little difficuly eliminating the Soviet Frontier Armies. However, I struggle big time in the north and south. In the north, I've nearly made it to the outskirts of Leningrad, but the Axis runs out of steam. Too few units, all with yellow/orange indicators. The south I find it virtually impossible to breakthrough anywhere. There are simply too many Soviet units.

So, my question is if anyone has won this scenario as the Axis. Is it possible? (I should mention this is against the PO). Second, are there any tips or tricks anyone can offer that may help. Finally, should I simply move on and try some of the larger Barbarossa scenarios?

Thanks in advance to anyone who cares to comment!

[larryfulkerson]

I too have played this scenario, both sides and it indeed does seem that the Soviets have the advantage.  They always win.  Always.  I'm inclined to believe that this particular scenario isn't well balanced.  Um.....Welcome to the forum.....I see that you have posted 3 times so you're relatively new.  We all had to start the same way and please feel free to ask questions.  There is somebody on the forum that can answer it.  And we're all friends here so ask away.  May I also suggest the Articles on TOAW game play.  You can find it here:

tm.asp?m=2231803

There are lots of good articles and stuff to help you get up to speed and they are interesting and entertaining to boot.  Good luck on your games my friend.

[parzival]

I havent tried this one but I have played Brian Topp's Barbarossa as PBEM. I played the Soviets and it was surprisingly easy to stop the Germans about at the Stalin line. So the Germans were not able to take Smolensk or Kiev e.g. So maybe this scenario isnt well balanced either. Does anyone know a barbarossa scenario on divisional level that would be balanced?

[JMass]

I'm playing now Barbarossa 41 as PBEM and as the Axis, I just played the 11th turn and my advance goes slow now, I think the supply level decrease too much: I obtain now 4 points at the supply sources and 1 on the front line. Soviet infantry divisions, once fortified, seem too strong and the number of "at start" assigned tanks is incorrect: 6334 T34, 1931 KV-1, 619 KV-2! Germans has 900 Pz III G-H and 873 Pz IV D to beat them It seems that TOAW has a serious problem: too much bad quality scenarios, unbalanced and/or unhistorical, it could be fun to play them agaist the PO but are a loss of time if played pbem.

[nix]

Thanks much for all the replies, and for the link to the articles! [:)]

It sounds as though I'm not the only one who has experienced difficulty with this particular scenario. This is unfortunate because I don't want to invest the significant time to play such large scenarios when I know it's pointless. I fully recognize the fact that the Axis failed in real life, and that it's supposed to be difficult. However, it would make sense to me the Axis player should at least be able to make historical gains. It was even worse after I turned the fog of war off. I wanted to see just how many Soviet units were in action. In the southern sector, the Soviet PO was running in circles near the Romania and Hungarian borders. Huge forces were spinning their wheels when they simply could have rolled up the entire Southern front. Anyway, so if someone has any suggestions, please let me know.

Anyway, with that in mind, has anyone tried the "Road to Moscow" series in the WW2 East Front folder? Looks like the first year of Barbarossa in chunks. I will probably give them a try even though I will be missing the drama of playing the entire front.

I'd also throw my name out there if anyone wants to play a PBEM. I'm a novice though so I need to be shown the ropes. Thanks!

[parzival]

One of the main problems is perhaps that the German units become exhausted too fast. Insted, the Soviets have an endless supply of new divisions and when one line is broken they can prepare and fortify a new one. After 4-5 weeks the German units seem to be in a rather bad shape. And then it is difficult, maybe impossible to break fresh fortified Soviet line. Rather rude solution to this would be to give more shock to the Germans. A finer solution would perhaps be that the Germans could have some kind of special combined arms shock. So panzer divisions attacking together with good air support should be an effective combination to break through fortified soviet positions. After all, effective cooperation between panzers and Luftwaffe was one the main stregths of the Germans. The Soviets instead had serious cooperation problems between different types of divisions/air force.

Well, I have not tried "barbarossa 1941" and it would intersting to try it as the Germans to see how the scenario works. So if someone wants to play the Soviets, let me know.

[nix]

ORIGINAL: parzival

Well, I have not tried "barbarossa 1941" and it would intersting to try it as the Germans to see how the scenario works. So if someone wants to play the Soviets, let me know.

I would be willing to play. Now watch me get my butt kicked as the Soviets [:D]

[JMass]

ORIGINAL: JMass
the number of "at start" assigned tanks is incorrect: 6334 T34, 1931 KV-1, 619 KV-2!

As a comparison, the scenario Drang nach Osten has 890 T-34, 417 KV-1, 119 KV-2, FitE has 938 T-34, 480 KV-1, 53 KV-2... [8|]

[parzival]

6600 T34s is definitely wrong. I think that the correct amount of T34s in the beginning of Barbarossa was someting like 1000-1500. But notice that the total amount of the Sovet tanks in 22.6.1941 was about 20 000! Most of them were old fashioned of course. The Germans had about 3500 tanks in the beginning of Barbarossa.

[demyansk]

This is a good post, I just thought that if you enjoy reading about the second part of the invasion circa 1942 Blau, David Glantz has just produced a three volume set on the operation that will open up some eyes. I am on the first volume and he talks a great deal about the minor attacks germans vs soviet before the big push on stalingrad and the caucasus. quite interesting and he's a foremost expert on this era. Looking forward to the new war in russia coming out, that will be good.

[Panama]

Too bad there's no way to change the amount of time that passes before a unit can be reconstituted.

[nix]

ORIGINAL: demjansk

This is a good post, I just thought that if you enjoy reading about the second part of the invasion circa 1942 Blau, David Glantz has just produced a three volume set on the operation that will open up some eyes. I am on the first volume and he talks a great deal about the minor attacks germans vs soviet before the big push on stalingrad and the caucasus. quite interesting and he's a foremost expert on this era. Looking forward to the new war in russia coming out, that will be good.

Thank you for the book recommendation. I've read Clark's "Barbarossa", Guderian's "Panzer Leader", along with some other collateral. I will absolutely look into the series by Glantz.

As for the scenario, looks like I'm in for an interesting experience thanks to Parzival. I've changed sides and I'm fighting for the Red Army. Hopefully I'll make a good showing for my first battle against a person. I have to admit Parzival's first Axis turn was played mightly well.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: nix
As for the scenario, looks like I'm in for an interesting experience thanks to Parzival. I've changed sides and I'm fighting for the Red Army. Hopefully I'll make a good showing for my first battle against a person. I have to admit Parzival's first Axis turn was played mightly well.

Are you guys going to keep us posted on the results of the game? I'm interested in knowing how it goes since I'm a Barbarosa fanatic. Maybe you guys could do an AAR or something?

[Santayana_slith]

Barbarossa 41 is one of the scenarios which were included in first volume of TOAW, so it probably hasn’t been revised, balanced and corrected for nearly a decade, including several engine modifications. Regarding the supply issues, the “High Supply” option was introduced to somewhat address the imbalance in this kind of old scenarios, so maybe it’d help to turn it on in the Advanced options.

Brian Topp’s Barbarossa, on the other hand, has been extensively revised, but the focus, IIRC, was to provide a challenging experience for the Axis player, in particular, against the Soviet PO.

[JMass]

ORIGINAL: Santayana
Regarding the supply issues, the “High Supply” option was introduced to somewhat address the imbalance in this kind of old scenarios, so maybe it’d help to turn it on in the Advanced options.

Thanks but I turn it on always when I play older scenarios... [:(]

[nix]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

ORIGINAL: nix
As for the scenario, looks like I'm in for an interesting experience thanks to Parzival. I've changed sides and I'm fighting for the Red Army. Hopefully I'll make a good showing for my first battle against a person. I have to admit Parzival's first Axis turn was played mightly well.

Are you guys going to keep us posted on the results of the game? I'm interested in knowing how it goes since I'm a Barbarosa fanatic. Maybe you guys could do an AAR or something?

I'll update our game in this thread, but I don't really have the time/creativity to make a formal AAR. I'm also not sure I want the whole community to witness a detailed example of my lack of skill. [:D]

[demyansk]

Hi guys-Nix,

I purchesed the three volume set from Amazon and I am just about done with the first volume. Volume 1 contains a great deal of info with all the units and for those who want to create battles, this is the 3 volume set to buy. The only negative part of the set is the maps, downright lousy but since I collect books this is not a problem. I have about 15 books on the Battle of Stalingrad and this is so far a nuts and bolts type of book. Its more detail than Beevor's book and quite different than the personal testimonies. What's interesting is all the preliminary battles that sapped the strength of 6th Army and 4th Pz Army during the end of August 1942. I just finished a section of the book dealing with the Don river along the northern left wing of 6th Army near the town of Seramovich (spelling wrong). The Italians held a significant section of this sector and the soviets were able to get a foothold across the river near the end of august early sept. OKW and OKH didnt see the significance of this weak area but the soviets did. Three months later all the cards came crashing down on the germans. Very interesting commentary on the battle and the the lack of German armor plus casualties which sapped the strength of the german army. also good insight into the northern sector from general hub's attack. I am not sure if the books are in the library yet but well worht the money