Jap Signal intelligence

[Admiral Scott]

I have not tried playing as the Japs, but I was wondering how good is their signal intelligence compared to the allies?

[Puhis]

It's crap. All japanese player ever get is "radio transmission detected" or "heavy radio transmission detected". Usually I don't even bother check it.

[Torplexed]

It's interesting to note that in late July, 1942 Lieutenant Commander Haruki Itoh of the Naval Intelligence Center in Tokyo picked up two new Allied call signs in the Southwest Pacific. Since both stations operated on the commander-in-chief circuit (4205 kc series) and both communicated directly with Pearl, Itoh deduced that either could be headquarters for a new enemy task force. Consequently, he and his staff concluded that the Allies were about to start an offensive in the Solomons or New Guinea. An urgent warning was radioed to Truk and Rabaul but it was ignored in both places. Probably one of those rare occasions where Japanese signal intelligence was on the money. However, even after Midway Japanese over-confidence hadn't been diminished enough by the defeat to grasp it.

[topeverest]

Jap intel is poo!

You'll have to rely on good old fashion guile, skill, and intuition.

[d0mbo]

i beg to differ.
 
in the guadalcanal scenario i was able to interecept a troop transport convoy once that was sailing from cookstown because signal intelligece revealed a crapload of AP's in the harbor there......
 
 
i will admit is probably much poorer than allied intelligence, as it should be.
 
 

[topeverest]

Agreed on both parts. Japs will get a few gems, but dont expect them.

[Admiral Scott]

So its historically correct, good.

[Brady]

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

So its historically correct, good.

The game over does it both ways. Allied Intell is to consistant and to timely, and Japanese intell is while closer to what one would expect, to understated.

Most Japanese signal trafic was not read and what was able to be read was mostly not procesed in a maner that could be construed as actionable.

Also most of what was able to be read was arived at by shear luck, the finding of code books for example on a couple of ocashions.

The game theirfore offers the myth as aposed to the reality of the situation.

Howeaver using this in game is a pain.

[Shark7]

Having played both sides, I agree with Brady on this issue.

The Allies do get more actionable intel than they should, and the Japanese player gets virutally nothing. And while I'm not saying there shouldn't be a big deficit between the two, a tweaking pass might not be a bad thing.

The one Ace the Japanese have are the Glen carrying submarines which can be used to gather intel in rear areas the old fasioned way (IE Mk I Eyeball and Polaroid Camera) IF you can get it in range and keep it alive long enough to make a pass or two with the Glen.

[Bradley7735]

There were large periods of time that the US could read Japanese codes (not all codes, but some of them) quite easily and quickly. Almost all subs sunk by US subs were the result of intelligence. In fact, a good chunk of all ships sunk by the silent service were from tips from intelligence. Not all, by any means, but subs were reguarly routed due to intelligence reports.

To be honest, I'm not sure how the developers could get it better. You can't modify a game to check the brain of your opponent and give information. I suppose games vs the AI could have some good 'ultra', but that's about it.

[Feltan]

The one point not historical at all: the Japanese had perhaps the best direction finding equipment and procedures in the world in the early 1940's.

While DF will not readily convey intentions like cracking a code -- the Japanese should be getting a lot of position and direction-of-movement of units at sea; more so for merchants, less so for warships.

Regards,
Feltan

[spence]

Allied Signal Intelligence provided location, course, speed and destination of numerous IJN warships; especially in 1943-45. It can't really get any better than that. In the game that information is provided approximately never. Once the war got going Allied Signals Traffic Analysis consistently provided allied commanders with the location (current home port) of major IJN warships and warning that they were going to move (even when destination/target might not be discernable).

[Chickenboy]

By and large, IJ SigInt is very poor. However, with some deduction, the Japanese player can make some of the data actionable. I've used this on a few occasions to infer activity (and need for a strike) or determine some routings of enemy ships.

[GB68]

I have always thought this area of the game has been non-historical. I do not mean the Allies should not have an advantage, but I mean the fact we know in game, the intel the allies recieve is 100% correct and the Japanese get basically nothing!

We all know the allies have the "codes", but even then there are always codes within a code. I'm sure there are veteran Intelligence Officers who frequent these forums. I'm sure they will corroborate the fact, that in even the best of circumstances, "decoding" is often made up of part guess work. I have always believed that to be historical, the allies should recieve good intelligence, detailed, but lets' say 75% correct, give or take 10%. The Japanese should recieve some nominal details, but in the area of 40 to 50% correct. Much more though than " Radio tranmissions detected at hex xx,xx "

Just my thoughts as I've always felt it was far too biased to the Allies.

[Mike Scholl]

I'd say just the opposite of GB68.  The Japanese had some incredibly dumb practices like every merchant ship reporting it's noon position each day back to Tokyo.  The only thing that kept Allied subs from sinking them all was that the navigation was so poor that the reported position was often wrong by a dozen miles or more (leaving the sub to watch smoke on the horizon).

Overall, while Allied intel shouldn't be anything like 100%, it should far outstrip Japanese capabilities in every respect.  I think it's under-rated. 

[d0mbo]

Not to be blunt, but: have any of the players here tried to hoover the mousepointer over the base where the radio transmissions were detected? Sometimes you will be able to "see" what type of ships are in port and can act accordingly. Grantd it's not much, but it IS helpfull so i still wouldn't all Japanese intelligence worthless.
 
 

[Shark7]

You do have to remember that Midway was not dumb luck, it was a lot of work over time. How the intel guys finally determined that Midway was the target of an attack was to send false signals themselves about Midway and see if those messages were sent along back to Japan with what they thought was Midways Japanese code signal...in the case of Midway, it was.

So that really tells us:

1. The Allies weren't just getting messages that said 'We're attacking Midway next week'. They had to work to confirm their suspicions. In the case of Midway, it took about 3 months to figure out both the target and date of the attack.

2. The Japanese were obviously intercepting USN transmissions in a way that made it possible to use the intel...granted in the case of Midway the US purposely used radio deception, but that does prove the Japanese were capable of signals intel.

Basically the Allied side is OK, though maybe a randomizer tweak is in order. Japanese side should get a randomizer that allows a very low chance of actually getting good, actionable intel now and then.

[crsutton]

Allied player never gets any information on the location of major warships-especially carriers when they are at sea or leaving port. This is a major gem for Japan as at a good Japanese player can easily hide his ships. KB is much more deadly as a result. So signet is great for the Allies but not so great...as on occasion the Allies did know the location of major ships.

As I recall, most Allied intel came not from code breaking but from intensive interpretation of radio traffic. Lots of hard work.

The Japanese liked to deploy sub picket lines when major offensive and defensive operations were in the works. The Allies got pretty good at finding these and rolling them up with ASW.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

2. The Japanese were obviously intercepting USN transmissions in a way that made it possible to use the intel...granted in the case of Midway the US purposely used radio deception, but that does prove the Japanese were capable of signals intel.

Actually the only intel the Japanese seem to have gleaned during the Midway Operation was the one message the Allied code-breakers had Midway send "in the clear" (uncoded) to confirm the identity of "AF". You would think a sophisticated intelligence service might be suspicious of a single uncoded message in all their intercepts---but the Japs fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Real intelligent!

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Shark7

2. The Japanese were obviously intercepting USN transmissions in a way that made it possible to use the intel...granted in the case of Midway the US purposely used radio deception, but that does prove the Japanese were capable of signals intel.

Actually the only intel the Japanese seem to have gleaned during the Midway Operation was the one message the Allied code-breakers had Midway send "in the clear" (uncoded) to confirm the identity of "AF". You would think a sophisticated intelligence service might be suspicious of a single uncoded message in all their intercepts---but the Japs fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Real intelligent!

I was going to say that too. The Midway transmission was not coded. The Japanese just needed to translate from English to Japanese. Mike said it better, though.