Zhukov dead!

[Preuss]

I've hoped to kill him in an air raid since I first played this game in 1991. And finally it's happened...only...I was playing the Reds.

...I shake my hand, the die tumbling softly gainst my palm....
"mamma needs new shoes!" I say...In my mind's eye I see a six coming up for me on the game board...lease, let my legions bve successful!
...a single black eye stares upwards from a white, six-sided head
...c'est la guere

[Montenegro]

Whaaaaaat??? How could this be? A bad stoke of luck for you I must say. Do you have Konev in the ranks stil?

Regards,

Montenegro

[czerpak]

I killed the guy once in my 10 years or so experience. Luckily it was in PBEM. Before that I didnt even know it was possible.

[Preuss]

I have Konev, and most of Stalin's sibilant toadies still remain in the ranks. Though to add to the joy, Eremenko and Malinovski have been transferred to the general staff.

[JIM366]

Originally posted by Preuss
I've hoped to kill him in an air raid since I first played this game in 1991. And finally it's happened...only...I was playing the Reds.

...I shake my hand, the die tumbling softly gainst my palm....
"mamma needs new shoes!" I say...In my mind's eye I see a six coming up for me on the game board...lease, let my legions bve successful!
...a single black eye stares upwards from a white, six-sided head
...c'est la guere

Tough luck.
Is it just me, or is the game very hard on Soviet leaders? In my E-mail game, I have had several Soviet commnders either resign or be relieved. Does anyone know how long they are gone for ?

[Preuss]

I'd say Stalin was the hardest thing on Soviet commanders. I was watching a program called 'Russia's War' the other day.
The episode was on the final assault on Berlin. AS the attack was progressing, Uncle Joe had good ole Beria send some NKVD agents to create evidence of treason against Zhukov. I'm not sure what happened thereafter as a local emergency (child related) caused me to miss the rest of the show.
Nadty business that communist crap...don't do too well...it could be hazardous to your health!

[RickyB]

Actually, Comrade Stalin was fairly easy to work for, and except in cases of gross deriliction of duty the highest leaders had little to fear. As a matter of fact, Pavlov (Western Front) was the only front-level commander to be executed during the war, while others that led much worse debacles were just reassigned. Nowhere near as hard on his Generals as Hitler was.

The Soviets encouraged a lot of self-criticism and analysis of failure during the war, leading toward a lot of their improvement. Definitely not what I thought many years ago about the Soviets.

[Preuss]

Just watched the follow-up of 'Russia's War'. Basically tells what happened in Russia afterwards. Among many sad stories of things to happen to those who were tainted by being in German labour, 'poor' Zhukov was saved too much trouble and given a backwater command for all of his efforts.

[Montenegro]

Originally posted by Preuss
Just watched the follow-up of 'Russia's War'. Basically tells what happened in Russia afterwards. Among many sad stories of things to happen to those who were tainted by being in German labour, 'poor' Zhukov was saved too much trouble and given a backwater command for all of his efforts.

Preuss,

Stalin could never get over the fact that Zhukov looked better than he ever would have on the white horse in the victory parade in Red Square. Plus, Stalin would have had that treasonous tsarist beast killed for bucking him!

Regards,

Montenegro

[Mark_BookGuy]

I think WIR has a definite pro-German bias, exemplified by the commander values. The Soviet military was far better than the game gives it credit. As I've said before, put Guderian in Pavlov's shoes and see how well he'd do. I bet his ranking would be a 3 as well.

[Preuss]

Ivan has plenty of able Generals in this game...more than enough to fill her front with 6-9's. The mass of human wave assaults testify to the true ability of the soviets. Many of these uninspired and costly assaults lacked what anyone could call finesse. The 25 million Soviets that died weren't killed in the majority by the Einsatzgruppen. Many died in costly assaults that made a day at the Somme seem small. The "Russian Steamroller" earned it's name from it's crushing size...not because it had the deftness of a neurosurgeon.

[Mark_BookGuy]

Originally posted by Preuss
Ivan has plenty of able Generals in this game...more than enough to fill her front with 6-9's. The mass of human wave assaults testify to the true ability of the soviets. Many of these uninspired and costly assaults lacked what anyone could call finesse. The 25 million Soviets that died weren't killed in the majority by the Einsatzgruppen. Many died in costly assaults that made a day at the Somme seem small. The "Russian Steamroller" earned it's name from it's crushing size...not because it had the deftness of a neurosurgeon.

My point is that a lot of the myth of German ability was happily propogated by the Germans after the war. We bought a lot of their claptrap because of the Cold War. Folks like Manstein should have been hanging from a noose. It's easy to blame the Fuhrer when he's dead. If Hitler wrecked a generation in Europe it's because moral cowards like Guderian, Manstein, Keitel, and the rest went happily and willingly along. None had the hair on his balls to accept responsibility for their actions. Somehow they all became "victims."

I think WIR reflects the usual pro-German bias you see in a lot of WWII literature. The Germans had more than their share of human wave assaults as well. (It seems to me most WWII battles are uninspired and costly. No one will ever say our campaigns in France and Italy were surgical procedures.)

About 7 million Russian soldiers died in combat. The other losses are from civilian casualties and mass murder by the Germans. No one says the Red Army practiced the fine art of surgical strikes, but their strategy and tactics by 1943 were as good or better than the Germans. They had their share of muff jobs (Operation Mars being the best example) but every side can make the same dubious claim. Monte Casino or Huertgen Forest anyone?

The myth of massive Russian numbers is just that. When you get to choose the point of battle you can concentrate while the defender spreads himself thin. In happened to the Russians in 41, and to the Germans post 43.