Bombur mod 2

[Bombur]

-Starting work in an improved version of Bombur mod for random maps.
-New features to be included
1-Added some stuff of advanced ptmaster created by Vic (except nuclear weapons)-Already done
2-New units to be added. SP-AA, night bombers, night fighters, amphibious vehicles, interceptors, Jeeps and other
3-Will keep the AI compatible tech tree (the simplified one)
4-Units created after 1960 will be added
5-Increased ship movement
6-Remove ability to build ports
7-Decrease the bomus for defenders in land combat

[Jeffrey H.]

Regarding aircraft and ship movement, it makes sense to use a combat radius but there has to be some way to accomodate the speed differentials within that radius. In a given span of time the aircraft can make 50 to 100 times the distance a walking person can make. That should count for many trips back and fourth to the maximum of the combat radius.

[Josh]

No port build ability? Then how do you supply your forces when they land on an island... and haven't yet taken a coastal city?
Glad to see SP-AA, that's something I'm missing in AT... Self Propelled Art, AA. As it is now I create my own SP units by giving them halftracked vehicles, but that just ain't the same.
So yes, thanks.
What do the new features include?

[Bombur]

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Regarding aircraft and ship movement, it makes sense to use a combat radius but there has to be some way to accomodate the speed differentials within that radius. In a given span of time the aircraft can make 50 to 100 times the distance a walking person can make. That should count for many trips back and fourth to the maximum of the combat radius.

-This wouldn´t be realistic because it would allow players to make one very long range mission instead of lots of short range ones.

[Bombur]

ORIGINAL: Josh
No port build ability? Then how do you supply your forces when they land on an island... and haven't yet taken a coastal city?

The penalty for supply withouth ports will be somewhat decreased, but you will still need to capture a port to supply your units, so you´re advised to have massive air and land superiority before attempting an amphibious operations, just like happens IRL. Being able to build harbours make these operations to because you can redirect production to HQ´s situated in the bridgeheads.


[/quote]
Glad to see SP-AA, that's something I'm missing in AT... Self Propelled Art, AA. As it is now I create my own SP units by giving them halftracked vehicles, but that just ain't the same.
So yes, thanks.
What do the new features include?

-The combat model will be somewhat simplified. No more fighter 1,2,3 and so on just fighters, for instance, but speed is incorporated to hitpoints calculations, making almost impossible for a Gladiator to shot down a Me-262. Same thing will happen with bombers. I will add night bombers and night fighters. These planes are almost invulnerable to day fighters (at least until the development of all weather fighters) but bombers are less effective at night. The cost of planes, ships and tanks will be decreased, they won´t be so expensive in early stages. Submarines will be harder to find and destroy and also more effective in interdiction, but less effective against warships. I will keep you informed and suggestions are welcomed. Eventually, all Bombur mod based scenarios (Religion wars, Global domination and modified Europe diplomacy) will be upgraded to the new system.

[Bombur]

Overall cost of units decreased, now it will be possible to build early planes and ships at a reasonable cost. On the other hand, the cost of supply increased. These changes made the scenario more similar to default.

[Bombur]

Working is going well....about 1/3 of units were reclassified and combat ratings were recalculated. I would like to hera sugestions on units to be introduced.

[Josh]

Cheap recon planes like the Storch?
More units with a paradrop ability, so that the paratroops get more punch?
A distinction between lightly armoured AT units such as the Marder I-II-III and the StuG series such as the JagdPanzers.
A distinction between mobile AA units and static AA units.

[Bombur]

Cheap recon planes like the Storch?

I can add recon panes, not sure if it´s worth the effort....
I can also add sophisticated and high performance recon planes.

More units with a paradrop ability, so that the paratroops get more punch?

-Will be done

A distinction between lightly armoured AT units such as the Marder I-II-III and the StuG series such as the JagdPanzers.

-Already done, Marder are level II TD´s and the Jadgpanzers are level III or IV...not sure

A distinction between mobile AA units and static AA units.

-Will be done

[Josh]

Oh, just thought of an other one; torpedo planes.
As it is now you use divebombers for your CV units, but they had also torpedo planes. Yes they were slower and more vulnerable, but torpedoes sure do damage a ship.

[Bombur]

We already have torpedo bombers, they have very high antiship rates, are more vulnerable to ship based flak and less vulnerable to land based flak (they do high level attacks against land targets.

[srndac]

Hello Bombur!

Glad to see that you're still working hard on that beautiful mod of yours. I can't wait to play the new version - even if I do have to mod it later to suit my own fancy.

I suppose you are now wondering what did I mod?
Well, first I modded the movement rates - speeded infantry and cavalry up a bit (slower on the road than on the plains???), while eliminating the 'fast horse' category - which was absolutely unnecessary IMHO - and creating Wagons.
Then I turned Mortars and Machineguns into foot-going troops - thus (finally) making them more useful than Infantry Guns.
And for the final touch - I boosted the production of the production centres by one level by modding the town Rulevars in Settings -> Rulevars -> Random Map Instructions. Your reduction of the cost of the troops should fix this one without a sweat.

As for suggestions:
1. Trains were already in use for half a century at the beggining of your mod, and were one of the most important means of transportation in this period. Just because they weren't used on the battlefield, doesn't mean they weren't used at all. Do throw them in, please.
2. Armoured Trains were rarer, but still used - think of them as extra-heavy tanks on rails, and with a limited retreat capability when the going gets tough.
3. I second the vote for Recon Planes. Scouting was the first ever role of the airplanes - fighters only being invented afterwards just to shoot down the Scouts. And, IMHO, using PBY Catalinas for scouting over land (as I am doing now) is just wrong (not to mention bordering on obscene).
4. Portable Airfields - since the early planes didn't have the tarmac airfields of today, but had to take off from meadows (which were sometimes even cleared of grass). This could last until 'combat engineers' are developed, and you can make them as a ground-based-aircraft-carriers (with a low carry capacity ).
5. Armoured Cars have acted as Machineguns-on-wheels almost up to WW2 - and NOT as tiny-tanks-on-wheels - so ... correction please? This goes for Light Tanks, too. And - even though they weren't mass-produced - could we have some slow-as-snail, unreliable-as-weather, self-propelled-artillery-like and rhomboid-looking Early Tanks? (Just for kicks )
6. Artillery - looks like you skipped a couple of beats here. WW1 Divisional Artillery WAS based on the 75 to 77 mm Field Guns with 105 to 122 mm Howitzer support, but the first quality jump (Artillery II) should be the increased number of Howitzers, and improved Indirect-fire capability - while still retaining the 75 to 77mm Field Guns. The next jump (Artillery III) was made by the beggining of the WW2 when the main Divisional Artillery became 105 mm Field Guns or Howitzers, with 155 mm Howitzers in support. The last jump (Artillery IV) should be made just after WW2, when the standard became 105 to 122 mm Gun-Howitzer with 155mm Gun-Howitzers in support. After that - the Self-propelled Artillery takes over - and goes to 155mm Gun-Howitzers. If you really want to represent Heavy Artillery - you should better make it as a separate type. Bottom line - not so fast, and not so heavy.

Well, that's all Bombur! (was that a Thank God I just heard? )

cheers!
srndac

P.S. Are you really going to expand your mod beyond 1960?

[Josh]

ORIGINAL: Bombur

We already have torpedo bombers, they have very high antiship rates, are more vulnerable to ship based flak and less vulnerable to land based flak (they do high level attacks against land targets.

Oops, sorry, I haven't played your mod in a while see [:(]

Matter of fact I've been trying to... master TOAWIII... lately and I just can't do it. I couldn't enjoy TOAW many years ago, and I can't enjoy TOAWIII, for the single reason of the "stacking of attacks". You have to play all of your attacks on the whole battlefield, otherwise you'll loose movement points for the other units. Now I can see where this idea is coming from (mid nineties, Win 95 time era, gamedevelopers wanting to implement a sense of "real time" in a "turn-based" game), but it just doesn't work for me... unfortunately.
I do admire very much guys such as Larry who can play this awesome game with great craftmanship, and write compelling AAR's too... but, maybe I'm too damn stupid to master it )

Anyways, long story short, I'm back to AT now for the last few months, and now ready to frolick around with some mods.

[Bombur]

I suppose you are now wondering what did I mod?
Well, first I modded the movement rates - speeded infantry and cavalry up a bit (slower on the road than on the plains???), while eliminating the 'fast horse' category - which was absolutely unnecessary IMHO - and creating Wagons.
Then I turned Mortars and Machineguns into foot-going troops - thus (finally) making them more useful than Infantry Guns.
And for the final touch - I boosted the production of the production centres by one level by modding the town Rulevars in Settings -> Rulevars -> Random Map Instructions. Your reduction of the cost of the troops should fix this one without a sweat.

-Interesting changes you did....but the smaller movements rates of machineguns and mortars were had the objective to force players to mobilize their heavy equipment.

1. Trains were already in use for half a century at the beggining of your mod, and were one of the most important means of transportation in this period. Just because they weren't used on the battlefield, doesn't mean they weren't used at all. Do throw them in, please.

-Will be done

2. Armoured Trains were rarer, but still used - think of them as extra-heavy tanks on rails, and with a limited retreat capability when the going gets tough.

-Agreed

3. I second the vote for Recon Planes. Scouting was the first ever role of the airplanes - fighters only being invented afterwards just to shoot down the Scouts. And, IMHO, using PBY Catalinas for scouting over land (as I am doing now) is just wrong (not to mention bordering on obscene).

-Correct, will be done.

4. Portable Airfields - since the early planes didn't have the tarmac airfields of today, but had to take off from meadows (which were sometimes even cleared of grass). This could last until 'combat engineers' are developed, and you can make them as a ground-based-aircraft-carriers (with a low carry capacity ).

-Already considered this, but was thinking about using this unit latter for helicopters and VTOL aircraft

5. Armoured Cars have acted as Machineguns-on-wheels almost up to WW2 - and NOT as tiny-tanks-on-wheels - so ... correction please? This goes for Light Tanks, too. And - even though they weren't mass-produced - could we have some slow-as-snail, unreliable-as-weather, self-propelled-artillery-like and rhomboid-looking Early Tanks? (Just for kicks )

-Not sure on what you´re suggesting on armoured cars. I designed them more as mobile machineguns. On early tanks like the Mark V or the A7V, they won´t be represent in this mod, but they will appear in my WWI mod I´m doing for the excellent tom weber´s 1900 diplomacy.

6. Artillery - looks like you skipped a couple of beats here. WW1 Divisional Artillery WAS based on the 75 to 77 mm Field Guns with 105 to 122 mm Howitzer support, but the first quality jump (Artillery II) should be the increased number of Howitzers, and improved Indirect-fire capability - while still retaining the 75 to 77mm Field Guns. The next jump (Artillery III) was made by the beggining of the WW2 when the main Divisional Artillery became 105 mm Field Guns or Howitzers, with 155 mm Howitzers in support. The last jump (Artillery IV) should be made just after WW2, when the standard became 105 to 122 mm Gun-Howitzer with 155mm Gun-Howitzers in support. After that - the Self-propelled Artillery takes over - and goes to 155mm Gun-Howitzers. If you really want to represent Heavy Artillery - you should better make it as a separate type. Bottom line - not so fast, and not so heavy.

-Hmmmmm...but I´m representing individual guns, not divisional artillery abstract units. I think we have the three basic SF´s you mentioned here (plus the latter SP artillery)

P.S. Are you really going to expand your mod beyond 1960?

-Yes, but it will be done only after the combat sheets are updated and the new units are introduced.

[srndac]

Hello!

ORIGINAL: Bombur

I suppose you are now wondering what did I mod?
Well, first I modded the movement rates - speeded infantry and cavalry up a bit (slower on the road than on the plains???), while eliminating the 'fast horse' category - which was absolutely unnecessary IMHO - and creating Wagons.
Then I turned Mortars and Machineguns into foot-going troops - thus (finally) making them more useful than Infantry Guns.
And for the final touch - I boosted the production of the production centres by one level by modding the town Rulevars in Settings -> Rulevars -> Random Map Instructions. Your reduction of the cost of the troops should fix this one without a sweat.

-Interesting changes you did....but the smaller movements rates of machineguns and mortars were had the objective to force players to mobilize their heavy equipment.

Bombur, machineguns were heavy equipment back in the 1860's when they were first invented (see French Mitraglieuse or US Gatling on Wikipedia) - but by the 1900's each one of them could be carried by a 3-man team, and in the WW1 they have quickly evolved into low-level (platoon to company) infantry support weapons. Also, heavier Mortars still need mobilizers, true - but the lighter ones are on the same level as Machineguns - right there among your Rifle formations.
Hmmmmm ... seems to me as if you want to separately represent only heavier equipment ... in which case I suggest that you amalgamate lighter Mortars and Machineguns into Rifles (and create more Rifle levels to represent increasingly higher proportions of the same) while keeping heavier pieces on the 'regimental' level where they would have to be mobilised. Whaddaya think?

6. Artillery - looks like you skipped a couple of beats here. WW1 Divisional Artillery WAS based on the 75 to 77 mm Field Guns with 105 to 122 mm Howitzer support, but the first quality jump (Artillery II) should be the increased number of Howitzers, and improved Indirect-fire capability - while still retaining the 75 to 77mm Field Guns. The next jump (Artillery III) was made by the beggining of the WW2 when the main Divisional Artillery became 105 mm Field Guns or Howitzers, with 155 mm Howitzers in support. The last jump (Artillery IV) should be made just after WW2, when the standard became 105 to 122 mm Gun-Howitzer with 155mm Gun-Howitzers in support. After that - the Self-propelled Artillery takes over - and goes to 155mm Gun-Howitzers. If you really want to represent Heavy Artillery - you should better make it as a separate type. Bottom line - not so fast, and not so heavy.

-Hmmmmm...but I´m representing individual guns, not divisional artillery abstract units. I think we have the three basic SF´s you mentioned here (plus the latter SP artillery)

Bombur, your stated unit scale is 20 artillery per combat unit, right? Then, if at the very beggining of the WW1 German Division had 72 guns, that would make 4 combat units (pieces? elements?) in AT terms, right? So ... are you telling me that I'm supposed to build 3 Artillery I and 1 Artillery II to make that kind of unit? Why can't I simply make 4 Artillery I's? Much less hassle IMHO ...
Also, you must remember that we're playing on a Grand Scale here. Individual pieces are important, but the Command, Control & Communications are just as importantas they are. Example: what's the use of a Big Bertha that fires on Berlin instead of Paris?
Oh yeah, I forgot the radio - which should make it's appearance right before WW2 - and make the Jump to Artillery IV, with the previously proposed Artillery IV being kicked up to Artillery V.

Oh - I forgot to ask the first time - what's the use of troop transport ships? I mean - cargoships cost the same (or a bit more) but they carry more AND have a decent SeaCap ...

Well, cheers!
srndac

[Bombur]

Bombur, machineguns were heavy equipment back in the 1860's when they were first invented (see French Mitraglieuse or US Gatling on Wikipedia) - but by the 1900's each one of them could be carried by a 3-man team, and in the WW1 they have quickly evolved into low-level (platoon to company) infantry support weapons. Also, heavier Mortars still need mobilizers, true - but the lighter ones are on the same level as Machineguns - right there among your Rifle formations.
Hmmmmm ... seems to me as if you want to separately represent only heavier equipment ... in which case I suggest that you amalgamate lighter Mortars and Machineguns into Rifles (and create more Rifle levels to represent increasingly higher proportions of the same) while keeping heavier pieces on the 'regimental' level where they would have to be mobilised. Whaddaya think?

I´m considering to incorporate heavy infantry equipment (including machineguns, light mortars and Bazzokas) to Rifle units, but it will be too time consuming, maybe in a future version.

Bombur, your stated unit scale is 20 artillery per combat unit, right? Then, if at the very beggining of the WW1 German Division had 72 guns, that would make 4 combat units (pieces? elements?) in AT terms, right? So ... are you telling me that I'm supposed to build 3 Artillery I and 1 Artillery II to make that kind of unit? Why can't I simply make 4 Artillery I's? Much less hassle IMHO ...
Also, you must remember that we're playing on a Grand Scale here. Individual pieces are important, but the Command, Control & Communications are just as importantas they are. Example: what's the use of a Big Bertha that fires on Berlin instead of Paris?
Oh yeah, I forgot the radio - which should make it's appearance right before WW2 - and make the Jump to Artillery IV, with the previously proposed Artillery IV being kicked up to Artillery V.

-I will review artillery, not a high priority to me....

Oh - I forgot to ask the first time - what's the use of troop transport ships? I mean - cargoships cost the same (or a bit more) but they carry more AND have a decent SeaCap ...

-You´re right, cargoships were intended more to give seacap and transports to carry troops, but late cargoships can carry more troops than transport ships. It will be fixed. Now cargoships will have very limited cargo capacity and transport ships will have almost no seacap.

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: Bombur

Cheap recon planes like the Storch?

I can add recon panes, not sure if it´s worth the effort....
I can also add sophisticated and high performance recon planes.

I was a bit disappointed by the recon ability of Zeppelins, considering these were essentially used for a recon role. Maybe an increase in the recon value of them ?

[Bombur]

The Airships have the best recon value among all early (pre WWI) units.

[ghoward]

Hi bombur.
I have been playing your global domination scen (as france) The french captured Jakarta early (turn 2 or 3) and make it and the surrounding terrain French. Sometime before turn six, the British were able to place a british unit in Jakarta, without a DOW even thouth it was occupied with a french unit. Now Jakarta is ocupied by BOTH British and French units. These two nations are at peace and have been right along. Jakarta is producing for the French (and prehaps the british as well) and the british units are invisible to the french unless the french try to move another unit into Jakarta From a LAND square. Then there is a fight, the moving french unit gets destroyed but the location display now shows all the british units (there are 4 of them now, march 02) and the french unit that was already there coexisting happily together in Jakarta. Interestingly, if I try to enter Jakarta by unloading from a ship, the british dont object, and the unit arrives safely in the city. I will try to embed a picture of the location display that shows this, but I have never done it before,so if you dont get the picture PM me on how to do it, and I will try again. I also have sav files from the start of game, the turn when I first noticed the british units in Jakarta and current turn. The files are lengthy, however, better than 2M each. If you want to take a look or try to reproduce it, let me know

Dont know why the picture didnt embed. whats the trick?

[ernieschwitz]

ORIGINAL: barerabbit

Hi bombur.
I have been playing your global domination scen (as france) The french captured Jakarta early (turn 2 or 3) and make it and the surrounding terrain French. Sometime before turn six, the British were able to place a british unit in Jakarta, without a DOW even thouth it was occupied with a french unit. Now Jakarta is ocupied by BOTH British and French units. These two nations are at peace and have been right along. Jakarta is producing for the French (and prehaps the british as well) and the british units are invisible to the french unless the french try to move another unit into Jakarta From a LAND square. Then there is a fight, the moving french unit gets destroyed but the location display now shows all the british units (there are 4 of them now, march 02) and the french unit that was already there coexisting happily together in Jakarta. Interestingly, if I try to enter Jakarta by unloading from a ship, the british dont object, and the unit arrives safely in the city. I will try to embed a picture of the location display that shows this, but I have never done it before,so if you dont get the picture PM me on how to do it, and I will try again. I also have sav files from the start of game, the turn when I first noticed the british units in Jakarta and current turn. The files are lengthy, however, better than 2M each. If you want to take a look or try to reproduce it, let me know

Dont know why the picture didnt embed. whats the trick?

This is actually a bug i discovered some time ago, and its in the AT AI Engine. Vic has made a patch for me, and it solves the problem. That is it prevents it from happening. I believe if you ask Vic nicely for update v1.24b, he will upload it somewhere... If not, mail me, and i´ll send it to you