Air Tranportation

[Naughteous Maximus]

I don't know if someone already brought this up but if your units were surrounded and could not trace a supply path, can you fly in supplies through air transports and how would that work? I also was wondering if you could fly out encircled troops but I'm sure thats wishful thinking.[:D]

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

I don't know if someone already brought this up but if your units were surrounded and could not trace a supply path, can you fly in supplies through air transports and how would that work? I also was wondering if you could fly out encircled troops but I'm sure thats wishful thinking.[:D]

You can fly a resupply mission. The only way I can think of where you might be able to fly units out would be if there was an airbase the units could move to in the pocket. And it would have to have the right type of aircraft.

[freeboy]

if I recall correctly when moterized units including armor run out ofsupplies of fuel.. I think you break out fuel? Is it possible to abandone the equipment and fight oon foot...
this wpould be historically accurate .

[elmo3]

Don't think there is any option to fight on foot.  I'll make the suggestion in the tester forums but no promises on whether it will be in the game.  We already have quite a long list of suggestions.

[wiking62]

It would be a usefull option. In the HPS PzC series of games you can instruct motorised infantry units to dismount and fight/travel on foot. These units can then regain mounted status. A bit different from completely abandoning equipment though.

[freeboy]

well, think about the ability to discard un usable tanks.. perhaps NOT an option but actual game CODE, where in the game removes out of supply/fuel/ tanks and allows units to be  "saved" retreated.. lots of examples in w2
 
?... doesthe game model fuel use seperately for mobil? thanks again for all the answers

[Balou]

Flying out troops would certainly be an interesting option. However in a Stalingrad-like scenario there will always be the question who has and who hasn't AAAAA priority, since it wouldn't make sense to evacuate the expendable guys from a particular unit when boarding passes are limited. I would't be surprised if realistic air evac is far to complicated to be modeled into games like WitE.

[ComradeP]

With regimental scale as the lowest level for most units, where would the planes come from to fly them out? The Soviets didn't have a very capable transport fleet, and most of their air landing operations failed badly in any case. The Germans had lost most of their transport capabilities in the Netherlands in 1940 and Crete in 1941. There wasn't a lot left for the Eastern Front. Also keep in mind that the units would be transported in Ju 52's, which really can't comfortably transport heavier equipment unless huge amounts of planes would be used, amounts which the Germans didn't have anymore. Transporting regiments and their equipment would also shift transport units away from tasks they were more suitable for, such as evacuation of the wounded and utility transportation.

[Balou]

Right. So a fair number of reasons that may exclude a realistic air evac thing, although the Axis managed to fly out wounded and specialists from the Stalingrad pocket (around 20T IIRC). But has there been some attempt to include "rudimentary" air evac in WitE or not ?

[elmo3]

Stalingrad evac was done to an airbase inside the pocket.  Hence my comment above about having an airbase inside a pocket.

[Balou]

Thanks. So then I will take an airbase to Gumrak and see what happens. Does airbase mean "airfield" or "airbase unit" ?

[elmo3]

Airbases are airfields that move and stack like units.  Air units, up to 9, are assigned to airbases.

[ComradeP]

although the Axis managed to fly out wounded and specialists from the Stalingrad pocket (around 20T IIRC).

That's quite different from moving an entire regiment, with all its equipment and in such a way that it won't have to spend a fairly long time reorganizing because you can't lift the entire unit at once. Of course, the Germans still had the capabilities to move entire divisions by air if they wanted to and could concentrate the air transport groups and were not in a hurry, but that isn't really a practical way of moving a division (or regiment). Not in Ju 52's in any case.

[Balou]

that isn't really a practical way of moving a division (or regiment). Not in Ju 52's in any case

I am aware of that, but it's not my point. There might be a pool of trained troops deep within WitE mechanics that you can feed by bringing back some of the most valuable guys that otherwise would surrender.

[ComradeP]

Ah, you meant it more like WitP's sytem of withdrawing of elements by air. That would be interesting, but it would depend on whether the "transport" category of aircraft can actually transport units. A lot of it also depends on whether units are really gone forever if killed.

[Balou]

I assume POWs won't be released until game ends and KIAs/MIAs are gone forever [;)]. But yes, I don't see why a Ju52 squadron shouldn't be able to pick up troops. However it would be nice if there were some options for priority - who get's a boarding pass.

[HMSWarspite]

If losses are dealt with in the way I think, a simple way of modelling the situation would be for any unit that is surrounded instead of all losses being permenant, a % is added back to the manpower pool if a route to an airbase can still be traced? I assume for a surrounded unit all losses are total?

[Balou]

Do you suggest that this could happen automatically as long as a route can be traced in theory ? Because in this case you would't have to bother about appropriate local numbers of transport planes and you could use them elsewhere. In WitP planes had to be where you needed them for withdrawl. No planes within reach, no pick up.

[wiking62]

I think the scale of the game is against this idea of air evacuation. As stated before the smallest unit breakdown is regimental level. The German Luftwaffe did not posses the capabilities on the Eastern Front to airlift this number of troops, let alone all their associated equipment.
 
I understand where you are coming from, but i think the overall game scale will prohibit this kind of operation. Just my thoughts.
 

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: hart2412

I think the scale of the game is against this idea of air evacuation. As stated before the smallest unit breakdown is regimental level. The German Luftwaffe did not posses the capabilities on the Eastern Front to airlift this number of troops, let alone all their associated equipment.

I understand where you are coming from, but i think the overall game scale will prohibit this kind of operation. Just my thoughts.

You are 100% correct. There is no air evacuation of combat units (Headquarters & air units can re-deploy out of a pocket but suffer significant attrition doing so) since air transport requires the transporting air units to be in supply.

With respect to Stalingrad, it was wounded and some specialists who were being flown out of the pocket not organized combat units. Such a situation is just too tactical to represent at this scale and even in HPS' Panzer Campaign game, STALINGRAD '42, you can't air evac.