The AI of the other empires

[Speedy2511]

Hi all.

First i want to say i like the game.

But i had a question to the other players: How good is the oponnent AI?
What do you think?

I am playing a 400 stars galaxy for the start, with everything is at the beginning and normal. So far there are no wars for now. I had 4 colonies and everything is good. My fleet is 12 destroyers, 20 escorts and 15 frigates!
I had a military strenght of roaund about 1500 (what ever this is, maybe the firepower of all ships?)

I am in contact with three other empire. 2 of them have only 2 colonies, and one has 14. But even the one with 14 colonies have only a strenght of 550.

I mean if i want, i could wipe them out, even with my 4 colonies.

And the whole galaxy has just a few colonizable planets, i think not enough.

Greetings from germany
Nico

[Interesting]

The AI doesnt addapt to you. They dont addapt their designs to counter yours. The AI accept stupid diplomatic trades and can be exploited.

When the AI attacks, it doesnt know how to prioritize targets.

If you start the game with the old and chaotic settings, the game will be difficult, but just the beggining, due to lack of resources and unbalanced forces of the old galaxy.

Once you get 3 Colonial planets, and access to 10 luxuries, you cannot lose anymore, because you will be making way more money than you will ever need.

You, the player, can simply go and attack the principal colonies of the enemy. The AI doesnt know how to defend or counter properly. You go, take their colonies one by one and they never take yours.

Even when all AI races have unlimited money and resources, they still cant compete with you in strategy.

[Wade1000]

Hey, developers, will the AI be improved very quickly?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2389471&mpage=1&key=frank&#2389471 (Distant Worlds: The AI; let's be frank.)
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ORIGINAL: Malevolence

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

Can such ships be automated to go refill fuel and return to refuel the fleet?

Frankly, I don't know what it does on automation. I don't give my slaves much authority in my empire.

Test it?

I know it will sit in space and when I select the entire fleet I can right-click on the resupply ship and everyone goes and refuels there. The name of the ship pop's up along with the other options (at nearest refueling point, and at your nearest space port). When the ship runs close to empty on fuel in the CARGO, I tell it to go fill up at the nearest gas giant. When it's filled, I order it back to some safespot near the combat fleet.

If the AI is written using a goal driven agent behavior it should and queue/stack the actions.

A note on safety, based on my play the AI seems to concentrate on activities inside systems. Things you do in deep space go largely unnoticed. I have yet to have one my strike forces sitting just a few seconds outside a target system preemptively attacked. Same goes for my logistics slaves. [8D]

p.s. yes, I do add construction modules to my re-supply ships.

tm.asp?m=2432568 (Whats a good tip of refueling)

[Speedy2511]

Hi Interesting.

Oh no, that does Not Sound good! With a Bad ai the Game is Not much Fun! Why there is no other thread about the ai?

Greetings from Germany
Nico

[Kamonrius]

This interesting guy seems to have not played the game properly....yes the AI has its quirks but it isnt horrible as you put it. AI will enact sanctions against you if it deems sensible to weaken you, it will also enlist other races to do so should it have the power. early on aggressive races will *test* your patience by attacking your assets without calling fullblown war, to get YOU to declare war and taking a reputation hit. the AI will strike weak targets in your empire but will blatently attack well fortified colonies as well, look at the thread large Fleet action for details on how a War would play out. there are alot of things going on behind your back in this game that could be your downfall. some races will innocently ask for your territory maps just so that they can pounce on any unclaimed resources in your empire. the AI will exploit you as best it can for its own gain.
 
be Aware this game is weeks old improvements are expected of course. but play it for yourself and PAY attention to the events, there is far more to them than random descisions

[JosEPhII]

@Interesting [:-]

I wish it was that easy. [8|]

Unless of course you're pulling speedy's leg. [:'(]

Wade, what Are you doing? [&:]

JosEPh

[Wade1000]

Well, I haven't experienced easiness exactly like he states but I have experience some elements of it. Also, like Malovalence states how opponents tend to focus on inner systems and often don't look in open space for any forces and bases.

Mostly, I'm relating what some people have noted at varying degrees to what often happens with AIs in this type of game.

The AI in Distant Worlds is good. There is always room for improvment. I think AI is a priority so I try to stress that in related posts.

[jam3]

I assume that the ai works off the same automation ai that the player uses so I would feel pretty good knowing that alot of people are going to find all the issues with the autmation and in turn that will help improve the ai

[Speedy2511]

Well, that Sounds not so bad.

I think i had to make my own Experience with this Game and the AI. There are other Empires i did Not discovered yet.

Thank you guys for your answeres!

Greetings from Germany
Nico

[ASHBERY76]

The A.I does expand well and use its fleets.The problem is the A.I diplomacy is exploitable and warmonger races are fighting on too many fronts.

[Gertjan]

Ashbery, good points. I hope the devs are paying attention

[Erik Rutins]

I don't think the AI itself is bad at all, I think it's pretty good, but there are a few exploits we need to close, especially now that economies are working well, to make it more challenging for experienced players with wealthy empires. The AI definitely knows how to take your planets and defend its own, I've been in plenty of wars with it to see that in action.

[fabio80mi]

Kind of agree with Erik here.
AI does know how to play and it can mount attacks and defend decently and in the very first games it may provide some challenge.

However vs even half decent players (lets say player with basic understanding of 4x games) especially if ship design is on manual (so a lot better than what the ai do...) Ai is definetly a cakewalk to take out even with lower tech ships.

Some thoughs on this and related topics:

1) In starting condition there is no *cheats* or modifier, what about implementing modifier for AI empires that can increase tax revenues,research speed and hull sizes by the percentage you say (everything start at 100%)
I perfectly understand the ideas of having a capable without using cheating ais and i keep on insisting in prioritizing and improving ai, however ai programming can go only to a point so no harm in providing artificial bonus to the computer if that provide more challanges

2) From what i've seen so far ai dont build enough ship and not armed enough for a war situation.
Most likely this is due to how bad the economic situation is right now (abundance of resources for everyone, lot of money for the player to build insane amount of ships) and the ai doesnt seem to exploit it as the player do.
Better templates for building ships could be a start.

3)Ai prioritization isnt that good but we all know that

4)There is no real modding, point 2-3-4 could have been already taken care or at least attempted if the game was really moddable.
There are countless example on how modding comunity can improve game experience and Ais in strategic games(that later may be included in the game with some patch), please consider it you have tons of players that would like to help you and this is a great resource you have, for free.

My suggestion for having fun is limit yourself with some houserule that will place you to the level of the ai
For instance you can try to play limiting yourself to have 3 military ships for every colony you have which will make every ship you have count.

[drillerman]

Considering there is no multiplayer I would expect the AI to be challenging at most levels otherwise the game would become boring very quickly.

[BigWolfChris]

AI isn't bad, it's just not smart
I out-resource, out-research and out-build the AI without any effort
The only thing they tend to do better is colonizing

Concerning AI Bonuses... erm... no way, an AI should be challenging long before bonuses come into effect, bonuses should only be used against the best of players.  If bonuses are needed to make the AI challenging against anyone else, then quite simply it's a poor AI
Space Empires, even with Kwoks AI scripting in the Balance Mod, an average player could easily outsmart the AI even when given the highest bonus level
GalCiv, without bonuses, the AI is a cakewalk, in the original GalCiv2, I understand it was challenging without them, but when they used the unique tech trees, they didn't update the AI, making it easy again

AI is, and always will be, complicated
Personally, I think it would be great if the AI scripting was unlocked to modders, since a team of modders will always outdo developers, due to they can work solely on the AI, whereas the developer has to work on everything (and within a time-frame and budget)

[Interesting]

The problem with the AI, that is not related to diplomacy or economy:

"Lack of Volume"
"Pressure"

Whatever the AI does, the player can just shrug it off, because the AI lacks intensity, they never make the player run for his money, it always feel like the AI uses less force than necessary.
Whenever the AI does anything, it takes too many intervals between current and next actions. Its like playing a flash defense game, with timelly intervals of attacks. I never feel under pressure, fighting a real treat.

Another generic problem that is not just related with the above, but other reasons:
Both when attacking or defending. The AI cant attack successfully, neither defend effectivelly.

So, no, its not just the exploitable simplistic diplomacy or the easily achievable rich economy.
In this game the AI doesnt earned my respect.
If the goal is to make the game difficult, one can always make the AI cheat with bonuses, or nerf the player's economy, but this wont fix the aforementioned problems. It will be just a matter of grinding more resources to cope with AI bonuses or get a better economy.

Dont take me wrong.
With most of the bugs fixed in 1.03, we are jumping back to gameplay fixes: diplomacy/economy will be next, and then, with the focus/feedback we are giving now, hopefully soon will be the AI. Its all for the greater good of the game.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Interesting
Whatever the AI does, the player can just shrug it off, because the AI lacks intensity, they never make the player run for his money, it always feel like the AI uses less force than necessary.
Whenever the AI does anything, it takes too many intervals between current and next actions. Its like playing a flash defense game, with timelly intervals of attacks. I never feel under pressure, fighting a real treat.

What settings are you playing with? Galaxy setup can make a big difference here in terms of tailoring the challenge to your skill level.

Regards,

- Erik

[Interesting]

Age of the Galaxy: Starting/Very Young. (1)
Agression of AI races: Normal. (2) 

Those are the ones that matter most for game difficulty, right?

This is a good time to start discussing how the Agression setting really affects AI "inteligence", BESIDES making them more prone to war. Would a Chaotic (5) world make the AI addapt their designs to counter mine, attack my unprotected areas, steal my techs, use pirates and other races against me? If this is all it takes to fix/justify the current AI, rather just making pacific races goes berserk, do tell me.

And if it does affect Artificial Inteligent Races "inteligence", besides or rather than "agressivity", I hereby suggest for the next patch: A better description for it, or, even better another slider accounting specifically for the AI "inteligence", Then I would pick agressivity normal and AI inteligence at maximum. Because, I want realistic agressivity, instead of arcade "go go go", wich detracts from my immersion (when I think: "Oh, why the pacific miner race Teekans who like to keep to themselfs are going nuts trying to conquer the whole galaxy?" type of thing).

Size of the galaxy: 1400
Starting player colonies/ships/resources on system: Minimum
Independent life, pirates and space creatures: at Maximum.
19 random alien races
homogeneous galaxy with random start
Human/Democracy
sandbox mode

I think thats the settings I use.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Interesting
Age of the Galaxy: Starting/Very Young. (1)
Agression of AI races: Normal. (2) 
Those are the ones that matter most for game difficulty, right?

The Pirates and Monsters settings also affect difficulty, as does the galaxy size vs. the number of AI races and the settings of each AI race in terms of their tech level and development and distance compared to your empire (if you're not just auto-generating them).

This is a good time to start discussing how the Agression setting really affects AI "inteligence", BESIDES making them more prone to war. Would a Chaotic (5) world make the AI addapt their designs to counter mine, attack my unprotected areas, steal my techs, use pirates and other races against me? If this is all it takes to fix/justify the current AI, rather just making pacific races goes berserk, do tell me.

I'd suggest you try a game with "Unstable" or "Chaos" as the Aggression setting and see how you do. The AI does not adapt its designs to counter yours, but each race's AI has its own "design philosophy" for how they want to build their ships. I usually play on "Unstable" and the AI does raid my unprotected areas, steal my techs and use pirates and get other races to declare war against me.

And if it does affect Artificial Inteligent Races "inteligence", besides or rather than "agressivity", I hereby suggest for the next patch: A better description for it, or, even better another slider accounting specifically for the AI "inteligence", Then I would pick agressivity normal and AI inteligence at maximum. Because, I want realistic agressivity, instead of arcade "go go go", wich detracts from my immersion (when I think: "Oh, why the pacific miner race Teekans who like to keep to themselfs are going nuts trying to conquer the whole galaxy?" type of thing).

Even on Unstable or Chaos, the Teekans are not going to turn into the Gizureans, but you'll have a very hard time getting the Gizureans to do anything other than try to exterminate you.

Size of the galaxy: 1400
Starting player colonies/ships/resources on system: Minimum
Independent life, pirates and space creatures: at Maximum.
19 random alien races
homogeneous galaxy with random start
Human/Democracy
sandbox mode

Sandbox mode is also a bit harder on the AI, try setting a few victory conditions, even if they are extremely hard to achieve.

I'd suggest you try a test game with the above suggestions and go for 400 Stars with about 12 AI Races with the galaxy aggressiveness at Unstable or Chaos. See how it goes and let me know if it's an improvement. I can only say that I find the Normal aggressiveness setting too easy except when learning the game.

Regards,

- Erik

[Interesting]

I will start a game on "Unstable" right now.