Rebuilding a Unit's Magazine

[aotino]

Gentlemen,
Is it possible, when using the Harpoon 3 Scenario editor, to rebuild a Unit's magazine? For example, if one has a DDG Luhu Harbin-class PRC '94 destroyer in a scenario one was creating, could one add C.801 Ying Ji-1's to the ship's magazine to supply Z-8 Super Frelons that are on-board? I've noticed for a long time how in the EDIT pull-down menu, if you select UNITS, you are offered a REBUILD UNIT MAGAZINE option at the bottom. I've never figured out how to use that option, or whether it was ever usable. Any hints? Thanks guys for any feedback. Cheers, [8D] Alan Caso

[FreekS]

I think what you want to do is add weapons to the magazines. To do this press the logistics button (withthe vertical missiles on it). Then you can edit the weapons in the magazine - if the magazine can store the weapons you want.

If not there is a workaround, edit aircraft, add a helicopter with the missiles you want in the magazine, then unload the helicopter. You can do this several times.

The rebuild unit magazine has a different function associated with rebuilding units and mags after a database has been altered by the DB designer.

I'm sure Herman will correct any mistakes in my explanation!

Freek

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: aotino

Is it possible, when using the Harpoon 3 Scenario editor, to rebuild a Unit's magazine? For example, if one has a DDG Luhu Harbin-class PRC '94 destroyer in a scenario one was creating, could one add C.801 Ying Ji-1's to the ship's magazine to supply Z-8 Super Frelons that are on-board? I've noticed for a long time how in the EDIT pull-down menu, if you select UNITS, you are offered a REBUILD UNIT MAGAZINE option at the bottom. I've never figured out how to use that option, or whether it was ever usable. Any hints? Thanks guys for any feedback. Cheers, [8D] Alan Caso

Welcome back, Mr. Caso. I know that you are a long-time player of Harpoon and probably have many different versions of the game on your computer. The Rebuild Magazine function was present in Harpoon2, was dropped in Harpoon3, and was re-introduced in Harpoon ANW. Unless otherwise indicated, I will operate under the assumption that you are talking about ANW. Let's continue to use your Luhu PRC '94 example from the PlayersDB for the purpose of this discussion.

The current magazines found on that ship are:

7 Whitehead A.244 Magazine (x12) v2 1
80 FQF--2500/EDS-25A v0 1
88 Crotale Reloads - Manual (18) v1 1
121 Generic Chaff/Flare Magazine v0 1
230 Type 88C Locker v1 1
307 Compact 100mm/55 Magazine v1 1

You are correct that none of these magazines carry the C.801 missile for the helicopters. There are a couple of possible ways to do this:

1) You could ask me to do it for the next public release of the PlayersDB

2) You could create a magazine containing the 801 missiles and then add that magazine to the ship. Then, you could either re-insert the ship OR you could hit the Re-build Unit Magazine command.

The problem with #2 is that the next time a revised PlayersDB is released and you install it, that would wipe out any database revisions you have made. If you prefer to manage and edit a separate/personal version of the PlayersDB, that is not a problem.

The Re-build Unit Magazine command changes the magazine loadout(s) to whatever you currently have set as the default for the ship in the database you are using. For example, if you unload all the Whitehead A.244 from the Luhu magazine and then hit the Rebuild command, they would automatically be re-loaded.

Nice to see you plowing ahead with your scenario creations.

[aotino]

Thank you for the warm gretting, Hermanhum. It is very nice to be back. [:)] I love the present version of Harp 3 and I think the PlayersDb is absolutey terrific, what with the reorganization of the ship list by class and not hull number (we can now make sense and find stuff easily), and with the country attached with each unit! Also the abbreviation lists for countries and class acronyms at the top of the platform display lists is truly brilliant!

In regards to my question, I now understand what the Re-build Unit Magazine command does in the EDIT pulldown - it simply restores the weapons number in the default magazine in a ship. Thank you for that info. What I'd like to do then is learn more of what you suggested previous to that - creating magazines. How do I create a magazine and how do I add it to a ship? Do I use a Db editor, and where do I get that? I understand the last part of what you said, that if I change the magazines of ships, it is not changed for just the scenario, but it is changed permanently in the database. I can live with that, and I would probably then assign the playersDb in my game as a custom Db for myself. Should I make a copy of the PlayersDb first, so that I have a clean one, and rename the other one as my custom one? Anyway, changing magazines in ships is of utmost importance for my scenario designing, so I would love to know the trick.[&o] I am planning to submit a whole campaign in the future, based on a slightly altered change of history for the last 25years. Hope that will stir some interest. Thanks Hermanhum, and I look forward to your help.[8D] Alan Caso

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

ORIGINAL: aotino

Is it possible, when using the Harpoon 3 Scenario editor, to rebuild a Unit's magazine? For example, if one has a DDG Luhu Harbin-class PRC '94 destroyer in a scenario one was creating, could one add C.801 Ying Ji-1's to the ship's magazine to supply Z-8 Super Frelons that are on-board? I've noticed for a long time how in the EDIT pull-down menu, if you select UNITS, you are offered a REBUILD UNIT MAGAZINE option at the bottom. I've never figured out how to use that option, or whether it was ever usable. Any hints? Thanks guys for any feedback. Cheers, [8D] Alan Caso

Welcome back, Mr. Caso. I know that you are a long-time player of Harpoon and probably have many different versions of the game on your computer. The Rebuild Magazine function was present in Harpoon2, was dropped in Harpoon3, and was re-introduced in Harpoon ANW. Unless otherwise indicated, I will operate under the assumption that you are talking about ANW. Let's continue to use your Luhu PRC '94 example from the PlayersDB for the purpose of this discussion.

The current magazines found on that ship are:

7 Whitehead A.244 Magazine (x12) v2 1
80 FQF--2500/EDS-25A v0 1
88 Crotale Reloads - Manual (18) v1 1
121 Generic Chaff/Flare Magazine v0 1
230 Type 88C Locker v1 1
307 Compact 100mm/55 Magazine v1 1

You are correct that none of these magazines carry the C.801 missile for the helicopters. There are a couple of possible ways to do this:

1) You could ask me to do it for the next public release of the PlayersDB

2) You could create a magazine containing the 801 missiles and then add that magazine to the ship. Then, you could either re-insert the ship OR you could hit the Re-build Unit Magazine command.

The problem with #2 is that the next time a revised PlayersDB is released and you install it, that would wipe out any database revisions you have made. If you prefer to manage and edit a separate/personal version of the PlayersDB, that is not a problem.

The Re-build Unit Magazine command changes the magazine loadout(s) to whatever you currently have set as the default for the ship in the database you are using. For example, if you unload all the Whitehead A.244 from the Luhu magazine and then hit the Rebuild command, they would automatically be re-loaded.

Nice to see you plowing ahead with your scenario creations.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: aotino

What I'd like to do then is learn more of what you suggested previous to that - creating magazines. How do I create a magazine and how do I add it to a ship? Do I use a Db editor, and where do I get that? I understand the last part of what you said, that if I change the magazines of ships, it is not changed for just the scenario, but it is changed permanently in the database. I can live with that, and I would probably then assign the playersDb in my game as a custom Db for myself. Should I make a copy of the PlayersDb first, so that I have a clean one, and rename the other one as my custom one? Anyway, changing magazines in ships is of utmost importance for my scenario designing, so I would love to know the trick.[&o]

I am glad you find the PlayersDB to be useful and helpful. A lot of planning and thought went into the organizational details for exactly the purposes you identified. [:)]

It sounds like you are wishing to create your own variant of the PlayersDB in order to make your battleset. Are you certain about this decision? I ask because the PlayersDB already accommodates a great many specialty units requested by various scenario authors. We have simulated suicide bomber boats (a'la DDG Cole), hypothetical BB configurations with VLS, and any number of prototypical vessels.

Are you absolutely sure that PlayersDB will not serve your purposes? This is not meant to obstruct or discourage you from creating your own database. I just want you to realize how much of a hassle it is. To put it bluntly, the database situation in ANW is an ungodly mess that is best avoided if at all possible, IMHO. Having warned you of the situation, if it is your intent to continue on this path, I will offer whatever assistance you might need.

To make changes to a database, you need to employ a database editor. There are two such editors for ANW. One is the In-Game Editor and looks very similar to the Scenario Editor (with a few additional functions). You can get it at:

http://computerharpoon.net/public/Harpo ... r-v394.exe

The other is based upon Microsoft Access and is commonly called the Reimer Editor. This is the preferred editor of many Harpoon users as it is very user-friendly and allows for complicated sort and search functions. Unfortunately, this one is not presently available for ANW v3.9.4 AGSI claims that one will be made available when patch 3.10 is released. At this time, I am using an old version of the Reimer Editor that was originally created for Harpoon3.

I do not use the In-Game Editor very much, but I think that I can help talk you through the process. Firstly, download the editor and drop it into your ANW folder. You can start up the editor through the configuration launcher. Once it is up and running, select the Database pull-down menu --> Edit Entry --> Magazine

[hermanhum]

Once the Magazine Window appears, click the radio button next to Add New Entry.

Fill in the blanks for the table. i.e. I named my example C801 Yingji-8

Then select an appropriate Weapons Record from the Weapon Record Annex List. I am selecting one that already exists. However, if details of that Weapon Record are not suitable for your database, you will have to create one in much the same manner as you created the Magazine entry.

[hermanhum]

Once you have created the new Magazine entry, edit the entry for the DDG Luhu PRC 94.

Click on the Magazine button and all the available magazine entries will be displayed in the window at the bottom right-hand corner of the window. Find the C801 Yingji-8 magazine and click on it. The Magazine will now be added to the ship's magazines (as shown in the window on the Left-hand bottom of the screen.)

Once completed, hit OK and go back to the main window. Select Database --> Save Annexes. Then, Database --> Generate Signature so that it can be used in the SE. Your revised Luhu entry should now be available to you.

[FreekS]

Not wanting to interrupt the technical discussion, I too love the layout but especially the maintenance rules of PlayerDB.

My advise would be to ask Herman to make changes to PlayerDB platforms or add new ones you need for your scens. The huge advantage of this is that future players do not have to remember to switch to your customer database when playing your scens. The other advantage is that Herman has a rare combination of rigid rules not to change platforms that are used in older scens (so as not to risk of inadvertently messing up the way that scen plays), and incredible flexibility and service to create new platforms.

I've cooperated with the PlayerDB for years and have also tried to use other databases. These two advantages are crucial for me as its very hard for me to go back and retest 50-odd scens because databases have changed.

Freek

[aotino]

Thanks FreekS. That's good advice. Alan

[aotino]

This one's back to you Hermanhum. First, thanks again for all your help, info and the time you took explaning to me how to rebuild a magazine and how to work with the database editor. I am probably going to take everyone's advice and ask you to make the changes to ships' magazines. First, I will make a list of surface units whose magazines I would like to have amended, then you can tell me that I'm off my rocker if some seem too out of place. However, I think they'll be within reason, and will be very necessary for the series of scenarios I plan to create. Thanks so much, and let me know if this is advisable. Alan

[hermanhum]

Sounds like a good idea to get your first scenario off the ground.  If you don't like the process or results, you still have plenty of time to change and maintain a more personalized/individual database for future projects/scenarios.

[aotino]

Sounds good. Keep you posted. Alan

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

Sounds like a good idea to get your first scenario off the ground.  If you don't like the process or results, you still have plenty of time to change and maintain a more personalized/individual database for future projects/scenarios.

[Bucks]

ORIGINAL: aotino

Gentlemen,
Is it possible, when using the Harpoon 3 Scenario editor, to rebuild a Unit's magazine? For example, if one has a DDG Luhu Harbin-class PRC '94 destroyer in a scenario one was creating, could one add C.801 Ying Ji-1's to the ship's magazine to supply Z-8 Super Frelons that are on-board? I've noticed for a long time how in the EDIT pull-down menu, if you select UNITS, you are offered a REBUILD UNIT MAGAZINE option at the bottom. I've never figured out how to use that option, or whether it was ever usable. Any hints? Thanks guys for any feedback. Cheers, [8D] Alan Caso

Alan,

The Luhu's ship 2 x Z8 Haitun (French Dauphin). They carry the C-701T from 1998 and the C-701R from 2004. The DDG can't ship 2 x Zhi-8 [Changhe] (Super Frelon) as they are simply too large.

Zhi-8 Dimensions
Length: 18.9m
Fuselage Width: 3.3m

Zhi-9 Dimensions
Length: 11.9m
Fuselage Width: 2.0m

The Super Frelon is 7m/23 feet longer than the Dauphin and weighs approx 7 and a half tonnes more. I'm not even sure that the Chinese Frelon has folding rotor blades. My issue here is why would you build a hangar facility on the vessel wih so much extra space? I've personally inspected a few hangars on DDG sized vessels and you seriously can't swing a cat in there.

No offence meant but I think what you're attempting is unrealistic and Mr. Hum's willingness to modify the Database rather than stick to reality is slightly puzzling.

I wouldn't stress though, he'll simply copy my data when I release the next update to the HUD3, as he has over the last four years. The HUD3 uses the latest data provided by Larry Bond & Chris Carlson the creators of this gaming system and I'm more likely to trust them than Mr. Hum

Here's he latest data annex entry for the Luhu DDG (April 2009)

Type 052 Harbin [Luhu] DD

Displacement: 4800 std
In Class: 2
Size Class: C/Small
In Service: 1993
Electrn Cnt: 2nd Gen J&D
Acoust Cnt: None
Propulsion: CODOG/CPP
Crew: 300
Signature:Small/Noisy
Armor Rating: 0

Weapons: ROF
F(2)1 PJ-33A 100mm/56//1 Type 347G C
PB&SB(4)2 YJ-81 w/4 Sardine (6) D
F(8)1 HQ-7 (Crotale Modulaire) w/8 msls//
1 DRBC 32F Castor C (2) D/France
PW/SW/PA/SA(2)4 Type 76A 37mm/67//2 Rice Lamp C
F(12)2 Type 75 ASW RL w/5 salvoes E
PB/SB(3)2 ILAS 324mm TT w/3 A.244s F/Italy
Aft Pad(1)2 Zhi-9A Haitun or Ka-28 Helix A B

Sensors: ESM: 2nd Gen
Type 756, MX-902 [Eye Shield], Hai Ying J
Sea Tiger (DRBV 15) J/France
2 Decca 1290 ARPA J/UK
SJD-9 bow K
Sorel VDS K/France

Remarks:
Harbin, Qingdao. Third unit canceled. FQF 2500 is a license built
RBU 2500. Fitted with twin stabilizers and French-designed
Samahe Harpoon-type helicopter recovery system. Harbin carries
French Crotale while Qingdao uses local production HHQ-7 copy
of Crotale. Has 8 Crotale/HHQ-7 manual reloads.
• Late 1990s: Type 360 replaces Sea Tiger (DRBV 15)

Damage & Speed Breakdown:
Dam Pts: 0 39 78 117 140 156
Surf Speed: 31 23 16 8 0 Sinks

Regardless the choice is yours and welcome back to harpoon. I hope you're enjoying the upgrades that have been added.

Cheers

Darren Buckley

[Anonymous]

Darren,

good to see you back. For my understanding: Does that mean that an HUD 3 update is coming soon or does it mean there will be none due the copying issue?

If the latter is fact, then where is the perspective for ANW since there are no updates for ANW DB, either? Not to speak of the 3.10 update.

I wrote a few scens for ANW DB half a year ago, using 3.10 RCs, the latest interim ANW DB, sending them to AGSI; just to find out, that everything has stopped. Looks like sunk costs; since no downgrade is possible.

This is no tragedy for me, since I´m focused on GCB2, just writing new scens for it and waiting for the soon coming out 1.14 (which will be a big step forward), but people/consumers have a right to know what is going on with ANW.


If there is no official info, then the last Mohicans will a) switch to GCB2 or b) wait for Red Pill, which looks extremely promising. Then all problems are solved.


Regards,
Ralf

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Bucks

No offence meant but I think what you're attempting is unrealistic and Mr. Hum's willingness to modify the Database rather than stick to reality is slightly puzzling.

I wouldn't stress though, he'll simply copy my data when I release the next update to the HUD3, as he has over the last four years. The HUD3 uses the latest data provided by Larry Bond & Chris Carlson the creators of this gaming system and I'm more likely to trust them than Mr. Hum

What Alan is attempting is the entire basic purpose of game; "What If" situations. As can be seen, the PlayersDB will support all efforts to play the game wherever possible and leave the decisions regarding reality up to the users.

Good thing your license agreement grants permission freely, publicly, and in perpetuity in your own words. Evidently, you think that there is something shameful or wrong in requesting and receiving permission to do things. I certainly am not embarrassed since it is all legal and above board.

fb.asp?m=2077992

It is a shame that Mssrs. Carlson and Bond did not also provide sufficient data for HUD3 to actually allow the weapons to hit their targets. [:(]

[Bucks]

ORIGINAL: koelbach

Darren,

good to see you back. For my understanding: Does that mean that an HUD 3 update is coming soon or does it mean there will be none due the copying issue?

If the latter is fact, then where is the perspective for ANW since there are no updates for ANW DB, either? Not to speak of the 3.10 update.

<<EDITED>>

Regards,
Ralf

Hi Ralf,

Yes the HUD3 will be released through Taitennek's Harpoon Pages. I expect to start transferring files to the owner of the site as soon as I can.

Of course with real life impinging on my Harpoon time I'm going to be subject to bursts of activity with periods where things may slow down somewhat. I've just added several of the vessels involved in the confrontation off Gaza earlier in the week, and with the upcoming release of 3.10 that situation can now be modelled with boarding actions as an integral part of the scenario.

I'm sorry about lacking information on the ANWDB, although I know Dale is working with the Canadian Coast Guard/Fisheries Protection and his time is also limited. I have seen emails from Dale reporting on his progress and I would suggest the DB is still alive and well.

I'll make further annoucements as content is released and available.

Happy 'Pooning

Darren

[Bucks]

[center]This isn't aimed at anyone, I'm just expressing my philosophical stance on modelling hypothetical situations/platforms. I'm not asking anyone to follow it, I just wanted people to understand how I approach such situations.[/center]

I have no issue with testing "what ifs", I do have an issue with beyond hypothetical situations.

My (HUD3) version of the Type 052 Harbin [Luhu] DD has the following Air Facilities:

47 Pad (Small Helo x 1) 1
95 Hangar (Small Helo x 2) 1

The Zhi-8 [Changhe] (Super Frelon) is a medium sized aircraft.

In effect the helo in question simply can't even land on the ship and therefore my opinion is that, the basis of the question is set in something even outside of the hypothetical sphere.

Hypothetical (adjective)
Based primarily on surmise rather than adequate evidence.

I would have to modify the vessel, not simply change the magazine loadout and that, IMHO would require a modified/new version of the vessel added to the database concerned to even operate the Helo in question. Of course you could increase the size of the air facilities available but I believe that we would then have a vessel that is no longer a Luhu Class DD, it becomes something else... I suppose you could call it a Mod-Luhu, regardless it's as I said, not a Luhu Class DD.

It's not that it can't be done, it's just that the premise was based on using a particular aircraft on a given ship. The given ship can't carry the aircraft and that's the reality of the situation, i.e. if it can't carry it, what are we really testing with our "what if"? A modified or totally new platform, not a Luhu carrying a Zhi-8 [Changhe](Super Frelon)as stated.


Cheers

Darren

[Anonymous]

Hi Darren,

ORIGINAL: Bucks

ORIGINAL: koelbach

Darren,

good to see you back. For my understanding: Does that mean that an HUD 3 update is coming soon or does it mean there will be none due the copying issue?

If the latter is fact, then where is the perspective for ANW since there are no updates for ANW DB, either? Not to speak of the 3.10 update.

<<EDITED>>

Regards,
Ralf

Hi Ralf,

Yes the HUD3 will be released through Taitennek's Harpoon Pages. I expect to start transferring files to the owner of the site as soon as I can.

Of course with real life impinging on my Harpoon time I'm going to be subject to bursts of activity with periods where things may slow down somewhat. I've just added several of the vessels involved in the confrontation off Gaza earlier in the week, and with the upcoming release of 3.10 that situation can now be modelled with boarding actions as an integral part of the scenario.

I'm sorry about lacking information on the ANWDB, although I know Dale is working with the Canadian Coast Guard/Fisheries Protection and his time is also limited. I have seen emails from Dale reporting on his progress and I would suggest the DB is still alive and well.

I'll make further annoucements as content is released and available.

Happy 'Pooning

Darren

Excellent news. I´m on my way writing Pason 8 for HUD 3. I´ll send it to you in a few days so it can be released together with the whole battleset on Taits website.

[hermanhum]

I think that Alan is in the process of creating his own variant of the PlayersDB and it will be no one's concern but his own if he should decide to allow CH-53 Sea Stallions onto his frigates or allow the Z-9s to carry Sunburn or Harpoon missiles.

[Bucks]

Just in case anyone else missed this section of my previous post.

ORIGINAL: Bucks

[center]This isn't aimed at anyone, I'm just expressing my philosophical stance on modelling hypothetical situations/platforms. I'm not asking anyone to follow it, I just wanted people to understand how I approach such situations.[/center]

Just in case people were confused I wanted to provide the correct designations for this missile system:

The following weapons are surface to surface missiles:
1. P-270 Moskit (3M80) [SS-N-22 Sunburn] IOC 1984
2. P-270 Moskit (3M80E) [SS-N-22 Sunburn Mod 1] IOC ?
3. P-270 Moskit-M (3M82) [SS-N-22 Sunburn Mod 2] IOC 1996

Normally shipped aboard the Sovremennyy Class DDG

The Kh-41 Moskit [AS-22] is the air launched version of this missile family and entered service in 1984.

Happy Pooning

Darren


PS: No disclaimer, everybody knows I'm the only one silly enough to walk on broken glass in bare feet. [:)]