my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime

[alexalexuk]

playing 1.0.4.b4

im noticing that the AI just doesnt stack up to my custom ship designs, and clearly isnt adapting to the situation what so ever, im just noticing a fairly standard repetition of ship types and classes across all AI races, none of the AI races are adapting to my fast ships with torpedoes.

anyone else having the issue here with the AI races doing nothing out of the ordinary with ship designs and not adapting to a foe's shiptypes?

[Fishman]

That's basically true of all such games, but yes. An easy improvement for the AI is to teach him to produce "replica" versions of ships that kick his ass, imitating your designs using his available technolergy, similar to how pirates do it, only the AI must actually pay to build his units, and has to use the technolergy he has available, rather than having exact, free, carbon copies.

And pirates should stop doing that.

[lostsm]

if we had the ability to edit the ship design templates it would at least ensure the AI builds efficient ships. as it is right now, it's number crunching for the player to configure the best layout, and i really doubt there's routines for the AI to do this, hence the design templates

also, limits per ship class (escorts, frigs, etc) would help the overall situation as well

really, as far as i can tell, the only way the AI beats you is if they have an overwhelming advantage and swarm you.. provided your custom startbase design doesnt wipe them out first

[Fishman]

Isn't that how AIs beat you in EVERY game? In any game of this sort I have ever played, no AI design has ever beaten a human design of equivalent or greater tech level in single combat. You'd think they'd be better at it: The art of AI ship design was mastered nearly 30 years ago. But since game designers never learn from the successes and failures of the past, the AI designs are still functionally retarded. DW's ship design AI is no Eurisko.

[taltamir]

there are a few critical issues here though:
1. the AI favors lasers, lasers suck. It is all about range which means torpedoes are king.
2. the AI favors the highest damage torpedoes (shaktur firestorm, a racial tech everyone manages to get), those suck, you need more range.
3. the AI favors the highest ranked shields, the megatron Z4 racial shield tech (which everyone manages to get), they suck... they reduce the shields from 480 a pop to 140 a pop, but increase recharge from 1.3 to 1.5 each. Also they require gold which is rare.
4. the AI doesn't use ENOUGH weapons and shields. it will designs a massive expensive 20,000$ ship with only a tiny fraction of that amount being shields, armor, and weapons.

However, I am sure they will get around to re-balancing those issues. for now you can handicap yourself by forcing yourself to use auto designed ships vs the AI auto designed ships.

[lordxorn]

GalCiv 2 AI designed the latest ships.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: lordxorn

GalCiv 2 AI designed the latest ships.

yes, so?
And if you are referring to tech.. I asked them to re-trigger auto design as soon as a new tech is acquired (via research, ruins, or tech trade) during 1.04b2, they said its a good idea and they will, and beginning with 1.0.4.4 it actually does. The AI will redesign your ships automatically immediately as you get a new tech so you never have to use the upgrade button again (except on a custom design you made) if you have the ship design automation on.

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

there are a few critical issues here though:
1. the AI favors lasers, lasers suck. It is all about range which means torpedoes are king.

Well, it's about range and SPEED. As long as you have superior speed AND superior range, you will win. Period. However, if you can CATCH your opponent, the fact that torpedoes exhibit rather anemic refire rates can quickly be compensated for: Lazors have refire rates almost twice as fast, and are less prone to "wasteage" when many torpedoes are fired at a single target that is instantly destroyed, wasting all of the torpedoes.

ORIGINAL: taltamir

2. the AI favors the highest damage torpedoes (shaktur firestorm, a racial tech everyone manages to get), those suck, you need more range.

The racial advantage isn't that the Shaktur is unique, the racial advantage is that they get it NOW. The Shaktur IS the most damaging weapon torp in the game and simultaneously doubles as a bombardment weapon, but, as you said, the range is wretched.

ORIGINAL: taltamir

3. the AI favors the highest ranked shields, the megatron Z4 racial shield tech (which everyone manages to get), they suck... they reduce the shields from 480 a pop to 140 a pop, but increase recharge from 1.3 to 1.5 each. Also they require gold which is rare.

Gold is not all that common of a resource, but as far as I can tell, it's not all that DEMANDED either, as most of the stuff I mine just piles up and is shiny. But yeah, the problem is that the megatron is positioned on the end of the tech tree. If it were positioned more reasonably on the tech tree, so that it was not the final item on the tech tree, this would not be a problem.

On the other hand, sometimes the regeneration is all that really matters. If you're fighting in a situation where you can't even overcome the regeneration on the shield, it doesn't matter how many points the shield is rated for because you are screwed. When you stick a thousand shields on something, having 1500 regen is a significant difference over 1300 regen, and the absolute number of shields ceases to matter.

ORIGINAL: taltamir

4. the AI doesn't use ENOUGH weapons and shields. it will designs a massive expensive 20,000$ ship with only a tiny fraction of that amount being shields, armor, and weapons.

It does? I have never even *SEEN* a $20000 ship. I do not believe it to be physically possible to MAKE such a thing, given that a 1500-size Behemoth Capital Battleship only costs $18K, and the AI never makes anything that large! Given that Behemoths are constructed as masturbatory exercises and not as serious, economical warships, I find it hard to imagine what the AI could build that is that expensive...and only a tiny fraction of that amount is shields, armor, and weapons...WHAT IS THE REST OF IT? Are you saying that the AI has built a ship that is primarily engines? If anything, engines are the thing the AI does not build enough of, which is why he is eaten alive by torpedoes. In most AI designs, I find that there is often a superabundance of weapons, and never enough engines. His shield ratios are tolerable, if not generous, but there are always WAY too many weapons, not enough reactors, and nowhere NEAR enough engines. All the weapons in the world don't do you any good at all if you cannot even manage to fire them, and cannot get in range TO fire them.

[lordxorn]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: lordxorn

GalCiv 2 AI designed the latest ships.

yes, so?
And if you are referring to tech.. I asked them to re-trigger auto design as soon as a new tech is acquired (via research, ruins, or tech trade) during 1.04b2, they said its a good idea and they will, and beginning with 1.0.4.4 it actually does. The AI will redesign your ships automatically immediately as you get a new tech so you never have to use the upgrade button again (except on a custom design you made) if you have the ship design automation on.

I was originally referring to Fishman's post, and also that is good that the AI will custom design your ships for you with the latest tech events, why can't this be applied by all the AIs? To address the OP's original question.

[taltamir]

Well, it's about range and SPEED. As long as you have superior speed AND superior range, you will win. Period. However, if you can CATCH your opponent, the fact that torpedoes exhibit rather anemic refire rates can quickly be compensated for: Lazors have refire rates almost twice as fast, and are less prone to "wasteage" when many torpedoes are fired at a single target that is instantly destroyed, wasting all of the torpedoes.

Doesn't matter, torpedoes take less space (which improves your speed btw), do more damage at close range, and consume less energy... rate of fire is largely irrelevant on both due to shields soaking up a few good salvoes.
Besides, ultimate torpedo: Plasma Thunderbolt... does 72 damage per shot, shoots every 1.3 seconds. that is 1/1.3 = 0.769 shots per second. times 72 = 55.4 damage per second.
Ultimate laser, Titan beam SR... 22 damage per shot, shoots ever 0.7 seconds. thats 22/0.7 = 1.43 shots per second. times 22 = 31.43 DPS.
DPS of 55 vs 31, missiles win by math. So they have greater range AND greater damage AND consume less power (can fit more of them, less reactors and fuels, thus faster ship) AND take up less space (can fit more of them, less reactors and fuels, thus faster ship).
Lasers are fail, period.

The racial advantage isn't that the Shaktur is unique, the racial advantage is that they get it NOW. The Shaktur IS the most damaging weapon torp in the game and simultaneously doubles as a bombardment weapon, but, as you said, the range is wretched.

Shaktur has a fire rate of 2.3 seconds and a damage of 84... thats a DPS of 36.5
Recall from my above example that the ultimate torpedo does a dps of 55 and the ultimate laser does a dps of 31.
All of that with HALF the range of the laser (which has half the range of a real torpedo)...
Also, why in the world would you bombard anything? I wish I could prevent the ship design AI from ever using bombardment weapons...

Gold is not all that common of a resource, but as far as I can tell, it's not all that DEMANDED either, as most of the stuff I mine just piles up and is shiny. But yeah, the problem is that the megatron is positioned on the end of the tech tree. If it were positioned more reasonably on the tech tree, so that it was not the final item on the tech tree, this would not be a problem.

It is very much demanded when every military ship, civilian ship, and base requires a whole bunch of it to build their shields.

On the other hand, sometimes the regeneration is all that really matters. If you're fighting in a situation where you can't even overcome the regeneration on the shield, it doesn't matter how many points the shield is rated for because you are screwed. When you stick a thousand shields on something, having 1500 regen is a significant difference over 1300 regen, and the absolute number of shields ceases to matter.

The thing is, you are sacrificing a whole LOT of total value for very little regeneration... not enough to make it worthwhile. On a 30 shield ship, you go from 14400 shields and 39 a second regen rate, to 4200 shields and 45 regen rate... this is simply not enough... note how a SINGLE torpedo does more DPS then the regen rate of BOTH of these... since a 30 shields ship should be packing 30 torpedoes its DPS is then 1661.54...
1661.5 DPS vs megatron Z4... 1661.5 (damage) - 45 (recharge rate) = 1616.5 DPS, @4200 shield strength that is 2.598 seconds to overcome the shields.
1661.5 DPS vs deucalious KT900... 1661.5 (damage) - 39 (recharge rate) = 1622.5 DPS, @14400 shield strength that is 8.875 seconds to overcome the shields.
2.6 vs 8.9 seconds... deucalious KT900 is massively better. And the more ships you fight at once? the more that matters.

It does? I have never even *SEEN* a $20000 ship. I do not believe it to be physically possible to MAKE such a thing

The default large space port? the default capital ship once the tech level goes up a bit (and you get to the more expensive techs)? those are comon.
Interestingly in 1.0.4.4 I have seen unusual price inflation, I found out I have 0 sources of hydrogen, built 30 and they all mysteriously disappeared... the basic colony ship the AI designed? it increased in price to 200,000. but 20,000 ships were always around

[lostsm]

maybe the devs can add some point defense components to nullify our torps, that would help, but i'm not sure if they can even add that without some serious overhaul of the game

otherwise though, and it's a really lame solution, be counter intuitive and limit yourself in your designs for a challenge

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: lostsm

maybe the devs can add some point defense components to nullify our torps, that would help, but i'm not sure if they can even add that without some serious overhaul of the game

otherwise though, and it's a really lame solution, be counter intuitive and limit yourself in your designs for a challenge

I do, I use AI design exclusively...
I did have fun experimenting though... I have taken my best capital ships, stripped their laser for tropedoes, replaced megatron by deucalious KT900, and watch them annihilate the enemy LSP that previously slaughtered all that was sent against it.

I think the solution is to improve the range of lasers... I mean, they are lasers! in space!

[lostsm]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: lostsm

maybe the devs can add some point defense components to nullify our torps, that would help, but i'm not sure if they can even add that without some serious overhaul of the game

otherwise though, and it's a really lame solution, be counter intuitive and limit yourself in your designs for a challenge

I do, I use AI design exclusively...
I did have fun experimenting though... I have taken my best capital ships, stripped their laser for tropedoes, replaced megatron by deucalious KT900, and watch them annihilate the enemy LSP that previously slaughtered all that was sent against it.

I think the solution is to improve the range of lasers... I mean, they are lasers! in space!

i try to keep to AI designs but temptation is so hard to fend off! i always end up adding a reactor and then compensate for speed, and then next thing you know i'm redesiging the whole thing

[Bartje]

I think Fishman is right;

I also think he knows far too much about the AI

I think Fishman is the AI! [;)]

You are a great multitasker sir!


Perhaps there are too many people playing DW for you to keep up with, you should spawn some little Fishman hatchlings to play other people's games. That way you'll kick Player's buts!




Eitherway, AI design certainly needs a BOOOOST !!

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Lasers are fail, period.

Yeah, can't argue with the math there. Worth considering is that laser bolts have a higher launch speed and therefore may possess greater accuracy, but I can't get any numbers on that.

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Shaktur has a fire rate of 2.3 seconds and a damage of 84... thats a DPS of 36.5
Recall from my above example that the ultimate torpedo does a dps of 55 and the ultimate laser does a dps of 31.

Well, yeah, but a Shaktur is a contemporary of the Maxos Blaster, not the Titan Beam SL. Although with numbers like that, it does seem rather a mistake to put it on the END of the techtree instead of somewhere in the middle.

ORIGINAL: taltamir

The thing is, you are sacrificing a whole LOT of total value for very little regeneration... not enough to make it worthwhile.

Well, obviously, the difference is not for small ships like a mere 30-shield cruiser. The regen thing is more for something like a Colossal Space Port, where if you filled it with Deucallios shields, the numbers would be 7 digits and you wouldn't even be able to SEE the shield strength, and frankly, anything that can shoot through 2 million shields will just as easily shoot through half a million.

[taltamir]

Well, yeah, but a Shaktur is a contemporary of the Maxos Blaster, not the Titan Beam SL. Although with numbers like that, it does seem rather a mistake to put it on the END of the techtree instead of somewhere in the middle.

Which is my whole point.. shaktur firestorm is set as the highest tech missile... it isn't, its a mid level missile.

Well, obviously, the difference is not for small ships like a mere 30-shield cruiser. The regen thing is more for something like a Colossal Space Port, where if you filled it with Deucallios shields, the numbers would be 7 digits and you wouldn't even be able to SEE the shield strength, and frankly, anything that can shoot through 2 million shields will just as easily shoot through half a million.

That does not compute, at all... why would you have orders of magnitude more shields then weapons? that is a total waste!
And the math indicates you are wrong about that assumption... put 300 shields instead of 30 and you would maintain the same type of ratios; math doesn't lie ...
especially because you should expect to field armies with 300 torpedoes against those bases...

Actually, in the above example it was a capital ship with 30 shields and 30 torpedoes... A typical FLEET I make has 300 torpedoes between them. (mostly from smaller then capital ships actually). The duelc...

you know what... I am just yacking when I could be mathing... give me a moment...

ok so the same 30 torpedo ship is going up against a starbase with 300 shields instead of 30...
I will refer to the deucalious KT900 as "D Shield" and the Metatrox Z4 shields as "MZ shield".

On a 300 shield base (which will cost a LOT btw), you now have:
D shields have 144,000 strength and 390 a second regen rate.
MZ shields have 42,000 strength and 450 a second regen rate.

It is being hit by my 30 torpedo capital ship for a DPS of 1661.54...
1661.5 DPS vs MZ shield... 1661.5 (damage) - 450 (recharge rate) = 1211.5 DPS, @42,000 shield strength that is 34.7 seconds to penetrate shields.
1661.5 DPS vs D shields.... 1661.5 (damage) - 390 (recharge rate) = 1271.5 DPS, @144,000 shield strength that is 113.3 seconds to penetrate shields.

How much better are 300 D shields than 300 MZ shields? 133.3/34.7 = 3.84x as long to destroy the D shields.
How much better are 30 D shields than 300 MZ shields? 8.875/2.598 = 3.42x as long to overcome the D shields.

As you can see the ratio has gone UP... this means that as you increase shields the D shields become progressively BETTER then the MZ shields. Same for damage btw... as you increase the damage done to them the D shields also become superior over time.

Lets test it with the IDEAL conditions for MZ Shields than... that is, 1 single torpedo weapon (since the more weapons, the more favorable the D shields get), and 1 single shield component.
DPS is 55.4 for a single torpedo. DPS vs D shields is 55.4-1.3 = 54.1 DPS, @ 480 shields that means 8.87 seconds...
actually what am I doing, this is exactly the same result as the 30 shields vs 30 torpedoes were... duh!

what happens is, in an extreme case of 300 shields, a SINGLE weapon will not be able to overcome its recharge it. you need 8 torpedoes to overcome the recharge rate of d shields and 9 torpedoes to overcome the defenses of the MZ shields... once you have overcome it, each additional weapon added increases the effectiveness of D shields over MZ shields... at 7 neither shield would be penetrable, at 8 torpedoes, only the 300 D shields are penetrated, at 9 torpedoes both shields are penetrated (for having a 10 to 1 ratio of shields to weapons, which, is a completely ridiculous situation)

[Gertjan]

What about accuracy of lasters and torpedos? I always thought that torpedos often didn't hit targets, this would balance things, right?

BTW excellent analysis, but it also nudges me to micro managing ship design, which I dont like so much. I only hope the ship design automation will improve soon. Is this on the list for the next update?

@Taltamir, do you use auto ship design or suggestion or full manual? Do you still find it fun to play if your ships are much stronger than those of the AI?

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Gertjan
What about accuracy of lasters and torpedos? I always thought that torpedos often didn't hit targets, this would balance things, right?

I am not quite sure about the accuracy... what makes you think that lasers are more accurate though?
Honestly I have no idea how accuracy works in this game or where to find out.
The math I did had nothing to do with torpedoes vs lasers btw... only two different types of shields. The math is the same for lasers... D shields are just massively better than MZ shields.

@Taltamir, do you use auto ship design or suggestion or full manual? Do you still find it fun to play if your ships are much stronger than those of the AI?

Depends on my mood... usually full auto design to make things FAIR to me and the AI. (since I design better).

[Bartje]

Agreed better AI ship design is a must have improvement for the future.
 
Right now its roughtly "OK" but it should be "Wow! What just came by and blew up my space station???!!"

[taltamir]

if the weapons and techs are rebalanced then you do not actually need to alter ship design.
If Megatron Z4 shields were modified to have a shield strength of 500 with a regen anywhere between 1.3 to 1.5 then they would be superior.
If shaktur firestorm were modifed to be a mid tech missile or were modified to have better/same range and better DPS then no changes needed.
If Lasers all had their range improved to surpass missiles then no change needed. (actually that would make sense, lasers are weaker but longer ranged, missiles do a lot more damage but are shorter range... and the AI currently loads up on about 2x as many lasers as missiles...). I would suggest making lasers longer ranged then missiles, slightly lower their damage, and slightly increase the damage of missiles.