Game Stopper

[siRkid]

Last night I was playing a game that was going very well. I was enjoying it a lot and had finally reached the point where I could start taking other races out. I took my fleet with troop transports and headed for a capital planet . Once in system, I decided I would take over the only other planet in the system before taking on the capital. I landed 10 ground units and easily took the planet. I moved on with the rest of the fleet and started the invasion of the capital. This attack was not going well so I needed to go back and get some of the troops I left on the first planet. Well it rebelled before i got there and all of my units switch sides and now were defending the planet. I had to quit the game. First, how does a planet that is garrisoned by 10 units even think of rebelling. Second, when would 10 loyal units ever go over to the other side in mass like that. Very unrealistic. Considering how much time and effort it takes to get enough troops to conquer a planet with 10 defending units it was not worth playing the game anymore.

Please notice I did not say game killer. The game is still worth playing and this is something that can be fixed in a patch.

As a side note I find it very frustrating that the only way to attack a planet is by invasions and ships cannot provide ground support.

[Erik Rutins]

Technically, your troops didn't "defect". Rather they were slaughtered while trying to hold back the planet-wide rebellion and their equipment procured by the rebels to equip their own units. With that said, I agree this creates serious immersion issues and we need to present this better and give the player more feedback and influence in these rebellion situations.

Right now, when a planet rebels, it takes over any enemy troops that are in place, but we should model this in more detail as there are situations where with a large enough garrison a rebellion should a real chance of failing and where there should also be time after the planet has "switched" for the troops to continue fighting and possibly escape the planet if they are losing. What I'd like to see in the long run is for rebellious planets to generate their own troop/militia units that actually fight your garrison for control of the planet.

[siRkid]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

What I'd like to see in the long run it for rebellious planets to generate their own troop/militia units that actually fight your garrison for control of the planet.

That is what I would like to see. It would make it more exiciting.

[shanicus]

Erik, your reply is fantastic! I totally agree with your points there.

Perhaps this militia generation would be something akin to Civilization 2 where Partisan Troops would spontaneously appear near a large city that had been taken over by an unpopular foe. Often enough, they were strong enough to raise heck or even re take the city. But, if my memory serves, they came directly out of the cities population.

[Shark7]

I think I tend to agree with Kid here, if a planet is garrisoned by a large force, the chances of rebellion should be reduced. That should go for any planet...they might revolt, but you wouldn't necessarily lose control (rather you lose tax money and the development would be reduced).

[lordxorn]

Erik's solution sounds like something that can be patched, and solve the OP's issue.

[Keston]

Rebellions should not slip by unnoticed in blink of an eye or frenzy of pop-ups.  Revolts take time, often a lot of time - there should be time to reinforce garrison troops.  Or options to negotiate or pretend to negotiate demands, or withdraw troops, or crack down brutally.      

[Canute0]

Its the same behavior when you start to colonize at other empire systems. Most of your planets will rebel and join the other empire.
You should know about that behavior.

And why the heck you didn't load the combatproof troops after you conquer the planet ? If you dont know, these troops geting stronger each fight.

Second, when would 10 loyal units ever go over to the other side in mass like that. Very unrealistic.

Loyal to you or to the planet goverment ?
They are loyal to the planet and prevent them from enemys from outside. Troops dont have any police funktion.

[siRkid]

Do troops and ships gain experiance? I did not see that anywhere?

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Technically, your troops didn't "defect". Rather they were slaughtered while trying to hold back the planet-wide rebellion and their equipment procured by the rebels to equip their own units. With that said, I agree this creates serious immersion issues and we need to present this better and give the player more feedback and influence in these rebellion situations.

Right now, when a planet rebels, it takes over any enemy troops that are in place, but we should model this in more detail as there are situations where with a large enough garrison a rebellion should a real chance of failing and where there should also be time after the planet has "switched" for the troops to continue fighting and possibly escape the planet if they are losing. What I'd like to see in the long run is for rebellious planets to generate their own troop/militia units that actually fight your garrison for control of the planet.

This would be a great change.

Rebellions should be reduced, though, in general. They happen too much in gamey situations like this one.

[taltamir]

I very much like the idea of rebelling planets generating opposing troops, which then fight it out with your occupation troops.
plus the other changes erik mentioned. I think they will solve this problem.

right now I work around it by always invading the large planets first, and the small ones last.

[Tophat1815]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Technically, your troops didn't "defect". Rather they were slaughtered while trying to hold back the planet-wide rebellion and their equipment procured by the rebels to equip their own units. With that said, I agree this creates serious immersion issues and we need to present this better and give the player more feedback and influence in these rebellion situations.

Right now, when a planet rebels, it takes over any enemy troops that are in place, but we should model this in more detail as there are situations where with a large enough garrison a rebellion should a real chance of failing and where there should also be time after the planet has "switched" for the troops to continue fighting and possibly escape the planet if they are losing. What I'd like to see in the long run is for rebellious planets to generate their own troop/militia units that actually fight your garrison for control of the planet.

This would be a great change.

Rebellions should be reduced, though, in general. They happen too much in gamey situations like this one.

Whoa,hold on there sir. First off whats gamey about this situation? Kid launched and lost the battle in the enemies home system/capital planet.The non-capital planet that was successfully invaded then successfully rebelled against him.Yes,it needs to be shown in better detail but the results are not gamey at all. Those locals figured they had better show some loyalty and resist the oppressor or else.Or it could simply have been the home planet held now lets us kill these invaders!

[jscott991]

This is a silly, gamey situation that no amount of exposition can justify.

System One has two planets, X with 10 billion people and Y with 4 billion people. I invade and take over planet Y, presumably defeating its forces and subjugating its population. Two seconds later, Y has the capability of not only defeating my Empire, but taking over my troops' equipment and using it against me. If they had that capability, why didn't they resist the invasion to begin with? What's more, this situation is resolved, not using the ground combat system, but using the the "population satisfaction/happiness" system, which is completely inappropriate.

But, it gets sillier. If I had taken over Planet X first, I would have had no problem at all. Why would planet X's status affect the defense forces of Planet Y and vice versa?

This is a classic example of "broken as designed." The intersection of the happiness/rebellion system, which is unrelated to the combat system, produce an absurd result.

You realize the upshot of this is that the gaming system has produced a situation where some planets are impregnable because they are the lesser of two planets in a system. Does that many sense?

It leads to the gamey situation of always taking over the largest, which is, frankly, not that intuitive. That would be like MacArthur invading Japan first during his island hopping campaign.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I very much like the idea of rebelling planets generating opposing troops, which then fight it out with your occupation troops.
plus the other changes erik mentioned. I think they will solve this problem.

right now I work around it by always invading the large planets first, and the small ones last.

Plus you can always bring in more troops to brutally put down the rebellion...yeah I like it, a lot.

[Mifune]

All these are good points (including what Erik has said) but the time scale would have to allow for time so a player can react (and see the actions happening). And I am sure future additions will make DW quite exciting. All this said yes DW has loads of potential with the best yet to come.

[Canute0]

All these are good points (including what Erik has said) but the time scale would have to allow for time so a player can react (and see the actions happening)

Yep a first warning when the happyness start to go down.
When you get the warning that the planet is refusing to pay tax, its allready to late to do anything. Mosttime you just can sell the planet to the other Empire.

Do troops and ships gain experiance? I did not see that anywhere?

Troops geting stronger each fight upto a strengh of 30000.

[siRkid]

ORIGINAL: Canute

Do troops and ships gain experiance? I did not see that anywhere?

Troops geting stronger each fight upto a strengh of 30000.

Thanks good to know.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

This is a silly, gamey situation that no amount of exposition can justify.

System One has two planets, X with 10 billion people and Y with 4 billion people. I invade and take over planet Y, presumably defeating its forces and subjugating its population. Two seconds later, Y has the capability of not only defeating my Empire, but taking over my troops' equipment and using it against me. If they had that capability, why didn't they resist the invasion to begin with? What's more, this situation is resolved, not using the ground combat system, but using the the "population satisfaction/happiness" system, which is completely inappropriate.

But, it gets sillier. If I had taken over Planet X first, I would have had no problem at all. Why would planet X's status affect the defense forces of Planet Y and vice versa?

This is a classic example of "broken as designed." The intersection of the happiness/rebellion system, which is unrelated to the combat system, produce an absurd result.

You realize the upshot of this is that the gaming system has produced a situation where some planets are impregnable because they are the lesser of two planets in a system. Does that many sense?

It leads to the gamey situation of always taking over the largest, which is, frankly, not that intuitive. That would be like MacArthur invading Japan first during his island hopping campaign.

You are dead on. And if you take planet X first, then planet Y can come with it via rebellion. It is infuriating to try to invade planet Y, because planet Y is impregnable, and just steals your troops as soon as they invade.

[Yarasala]

@Erik: when you are at it, is there a possibility to refine the troop handling some more? Right now it seems the auto AI recruits a lot of troops (some 8 or 10 or so) at the home planet, but only one everywhere else. For one that makes it quite difficult to refill your troop transports if far away from home, because although you can recruit your own troops and leave automation on, most of the time I only think of that when a troop transport arrives at a planet and there are not enough troops ...

I suggest the following:

- Ability to set a maximum and minimum number of troops per planet. Troops are automatically recruited until the maximum is reached. When a troop transport fetches troops the minimum number is left at the planet so as to not strip it of all ground defenses. Of course the AI should be able to uses that system also.

- Troop transports keep the "load troops" order until they are full. For that they stay at the planet where they began loading troops although that may last longer than going somewhere else but prevents them from scattering and moving far away in search of troops. Or even better, make it two separate commands so that the player (and the AI) can decide according to the situation at hand.

- Ideally there should be an option whether the most or the least experienced troops should go on board of troop carriers.

[Canute0]

Right now it seems the auto AI recruits a lot of troops (some 8 or 10 or so) at the home planet, but only one everywhere else

Not true, it looks like the AI recruit troops depend on the population on a planet.
On any AI empire planet with high population i encounter 6-11 troops so far.
New colonies got 0 troops.

Troop transports keep the "load troops" order until they are full.

You should try to give the troop transport the Load troop command, then turn it on automatic. After a while he is full. Better dont put it into a fleet.