How different is this from TOAW 3?

[Redmarkus5]

Hi.

I've been following this forum with interest and will certainly be buying this title as soon as it's done. (When is that expected to be, by the way?)

I noticed all the debate about the AI and how hard it is to code, so I re-installed my old TOAW 3 game and played a few turns of the Russian War 41-44 scenario that one of the modders re-released in 2007. Actually, the TOAW 3 Axis AI is kicking my butt and it's already several hexes further into the SU than I reached when I tried as the Axis.

Truth be known, TOAW 3 with the Boardgame Mod and the German Tactical Symbols Mod is still a really excellent representation of the war in this theatre and quite fresh looking, given the age of the underlying engine. So, hence my question - apart from what looks like a better air combat system, and some nice features in the areas of replacements and refit, etc. what will I really be getting in GG War in the East that TOAW 3 doesn't already offer me?

It's not a trick question or sarcasm - I will buy, but I would be very interested in the answer.

[elmo3]

Never played TOAW3.  Did you try doing a search before posting?  Pretty sure this has been discussed here already.

[Pford]

Well at least it's not going to have, unlike TOAW, those rivers running down the middle of hexes. A fatal flaw, from my perspective.

[Flaviusx]

Presumably turn length won't be semi-random as in TOAW. I never liked that feature.
 
TOAW game engine is incapable of properly handling a lot of OB issues, too, particularly Soviet ones. This game seems to me to a lot better job reflecting the evolution of the Red Army over the course of the war. Your tank divisions break down into brigades and disappear, you get to later build those up into tank corps, you have guards conversions, rifle corps appear later on the game, as well as arty divisions, etc.
 
Command and control is rather different in this game: you've got leaders in this game, and a host of HQ related rules.
 
 
 
 

[ComradeP]

The way TOAW3 handles artillery and air power is...less than stellar and it looks like WitE is doing a much better job at handling those, even in Alpha stage.

I tried to get into TOAW3 and like it several times, but every time things like the rubbish artillery and air strikes made me quit.

[ool]

Ok I'll bite what is TOAW3 short for?

[ComradeP]

The Operational Art of War, don't ask me why "the" was abbreviated into the name but "of" wasn't.

[Redmarkus5]

Thanks for the replies.  As I say, I'll be buying this title when it eventually comes out.

[Redmarkus5]

I searched on TOAW, TOAW3, Opart, The Operational Art of War and didn't get any hits. Any suggestions?

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I searched on TOAW, TOAW3, Opart, The Operational Art of War and didn't get any hits. Any suggestions?

You can start search from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOAW


Leo "Apollo11"

[ComradeP]

Or the official forums here at Matrix: TOAW3 forums

[Zovs]

I 'used' to be a fan of the TOW/COW games, but they pale in comparison to this game. TOW/COW is fine for what it tries to model (everything and anything) but if fails on specifics. WitE will not let you down, you'll have many gaming years with this. The game is sort of like the old board war game from SPI War in the East 1st edition (1974) in that the mechanics are very easy and intuitive to use, learn, and get to know, the trick is in operational maneuvers and also picking a strategic option to follow.

If you have ever played the board war game (or its cousin War in Europe - 1976) you'll understand what I mean, but basically for those that have never played those types of games it is sort of like this; once you learn how to move and attack and how support and command and control work (should not take more then 15 minutes) then your presented with a large map covering all of Russia, with lots of counters and stacks. Sometimes this can be intimidating and that is what the smaller scenarios are for, to break you in so to speak. In the larger ones you have to, after learning the basic mechanics, first have to decide on a strategy to try. For an example lets take the 1943 game (it's what I have play tested the most). In this situation there are for the Germans a couple of strategies to try, a) the historical attack at the Kursk bulge b) a more saner approach aka Gudiarians plan c) fall back as fast and as far as possible to saner defensive lines and d) a combination of b and c or perhaps you have another brighter idea and you can try that.

From here it then whom are you playing? If your playing against the AI which is pretty good I already know through experience which works best (but I'll leave that for you to discover, lol) with or against a human player again that depends on his skill level and experience and all I can say is that Bob and I are just beginning that adventure as I write these words so we will keep you posted.

So to answer the original question, there really is no comparison, WitE wins hands down as both an Eastern Front game and a simulation.

[karonagames]

I will echo everything Don says regarding TOAW - it tries very hard to model the Eastern front, but the underlying game engine is overstretched trying to do everything that is asked of it. WITE is a purpose built engine and as such does a better job simulating the strategic challenges presented to the historical protagonists.

And yes Don, I am afraid, very afraid.

[Zovs]

Bob, I'll be gentle as a bear can be, see you in Berlin soon, Comrade Lazov

(wonders if Joel will let us post an AAR here?...)

[PyleDriver]

Don post a 43 AAR PBEM and ask Joel to move it up top. I'm sure he would let you guys. AAR's bring interrest in the game. I'd like to see a good 43 game also. Be kind to Bob, he's the new kid on the block...Ah what the hell, kick his ass...lol...

[Great_Ajax]

As a TOAW scenario designer there are several things that stand out.

1. WiTE focuses on the Eastern Front while TOAW is very generic. It is difficult to model campaign specific areas in TOAW.
2. Units in WiTE are much more dynamic. They can be reassigned to different HQs (can't do this in TOAW). The units upgrade to new TO&Es throughout the campaign. Stock TO&E units are included so you don't have to build units from scratch. Replacements in TOAW are item specific whereas WiTE is class based. If your 44 German Infantry Division calls for Pak 40 ATGs and you don't have any in the production pool, it will fill shortages with other ATGs that are available.
3. A detailed production model with factories, manpower, and supplies being generated by your cities and towns.
4. Support units are assigned to HQs (Stug, Engineer, AA, etc.) so they don't appear on the map and thus making unit plotting much more manageable.
5. WiTE has leaders that can be assigned and get better/worse with more experience.
6. Combat model goes into more detail.
7. WiTE has a ton of customizable screens to sort data

I still like TOAW and its scenario making ability is unparalleled. With mods, you could conceivably make a campaign of any era to include fantasy. In WiTE, there is no map editor so you are constrained to the War in Russia 1941-1945 for scenarios. WiTE does not have any provisions to modern warfare like TOAW does as the focus is much different. Finally, TOAW has some scripting options available in the event editor that are not in WiTE.

Trey

[Trilexis]

Hi, I'm from Germany.

A few days ago, I started to play War in russia once more again, after a long time. (Frustrated of TOAW III and SC2.)
WitE and it's features look very much like the modern version of war in russia. Well why invent the wheel again?
Can't wait to play it. I hope it will be released in Germany too. (hey you matrix guys don't you dare to not release it in the land of the evil protagonist)[:)]

[Zaratoughda]

TOAW is an old design and has many problems. The big difference for starters is with WitE you have free movement as opposed to the insane TOAW system where you have to constantly go back and forth amongst your forces staggering attacks and just hoping you can get in the attacks you want before the game ends the turn on you.

As far as the AI in TOAW... I'm not complaining but it is not that good. I tried the WW2 Africa scenario that starts with the Italians there at the start of the war... and all you had to do as the Italians is let the British come through and then put them out of supply and it was all over for the British real fast. I also played Erik Nygaard's Russio-Japanese War scenario to completion and took Vladivostok and would have taken Mukden long before it happened historically except that would have ended the scenario so I had them stand there until I took Port Arthur. There are various different AI's that you can try, if you mod the scenarios, but none of them address these problems.

Erik also did some really nice scenarios on Operation Torch and Weserubung.. the German invasion of Denmark and Norway, but with the insane movement system in TOAW, it is VERY POOR with scenarios having multiple independant areas of operation, and I in fact almost went nuts trying to play these scenarios (this is a reflection on TOAW *NOT* the scenario design which was excellant).

The funny thing is I have recently been thinking of getting back into TOAW... kinda getting bored with other things... but in that case would just be smaller scenarios like the Seven Weeks War, the Franco-Prussian War and the Battle of Mount Cer (WW1). Ah, on second thought, maybe not. In the Seven Weeks War the AI has an untakable fortress at Prague but you can trick it into waltzing out and then you can waltz in.

The general consensus on TOAW is that is an old design with a lot of severe problems that are never going to get fixed. There is a wealth of historical design there though and it will probably be around for some time as a game for scenario designers.

WitE, on the other hand, will be better historically and a much more fun game to play than TOAW.

Zaratoughda

[pvthudson01]

Well it is 2010, not 1999. that alone is enough to answer this question

However, TOAW supports more time periods than this game so that is one advantage it has. otherwise given the fact that this is a new game with the latest technology and computer wargame improvements I am sure we can expect great things

[wodin]

I could never get to grips with the turns in TOAW...far to complicated than needed in my opinion...I never had the patience to work it all out.