Impressions of 1.0.6.0 from someone new to the game

[hondo1375]

I only picked up the game a week or so ago, and have only used the 1.0.6.0 patch. I've put quite a few hours into it, so here are my impressions.

I've been playing Space 4X games since MOO1, and pretty much played all of them. This to me feels like it could be a contender for the Space 4X Hall of Fame ... one day. Right now, I feel there are some limitations that give me too much frustration and take a way from the enjoyment. Since I really want this game to succeed, I though I'd add my thoughts to the comments on this board:

1. The interface. It is certainly not the worst game interface, but I feel I'm wrestling with it a lot:
a. The system zoom key often just zooms me into blank space. b. One of the zoom keys often zooms me into a full screen of a star (why would I ever want that view?). c. There are references to system names and moons that aren't clickable and there appears no easy way to find them. d. I can't disable automate from the bottom left ship card, but have to go into another screen. Etc. I'm sure over time these will be cleaned up, but they are frustrating right now.

2. Fuel. In principle, this is a good mechanic, but the current execution is often frustrating. For example, I had a fleet on an offensive in a distant enemy system, and I was moving a resupply ship into place to deploy to refuel the fleet. However, the fleet was low on fuel. Even though the ships were set to manual, they started warping away to refuel at a distant star which would have put them out of action for a long time. If they'd hung around a few more minutes they could have refueled at the resupply ship. I kept grabbing them manually and bringing them back. It felt like herding cats in the end and I gave up. Some way to disable this automated behaviour would be welcome.

More to the point, I think some mechanic where tankers can be sent with fleets and auto refuel the fleet would take a lot of the pain out of this. Other games and RL do it like this, so why not? Also, tankers set to auto should be able to fly around your empire tracking down out of fuel ships limping around and auto refuel them Currently, micomanaging this is zero fun. Amateurs might study strategy, while professionals study logistics, but that's because strategy is a lot more fun than logistics.

3. Lots of little niggles. For example:
a. Sometimes automated constructors get caught in black holes: I can build stuff fine around a black hole if I micro manage, but the game isn't about micromanaging.
b. I cued up a whole fleet at a planet that never got build, although they appeared as under construction in the ship list. A bug, perhaps?
c. I had a supply ship that had filled itself up with hydrogen but when the fleet upgraded to argon-driven reactors I couldn't empty it and therefore couldn't refuel anything. Also, it would be nice to be able to load up resupply ships at spaceports, rather than having to extract at stars only.

I'm looking forward to the next iteration of this game and the impending expansion: I hope they address some of the key interface and fuel issues.

Still, possibly a great game in the making I think.

[lordxorn]

Regarding your fuel situation, it is alot painless when you design around this. All my designs are fuel tank heavy so my fleet can actually have some deployment time. Of course the obligatory Solar Panel is a must so you are not burning fuel just standing by.

Once I mastered this, fuel was never an issue like you describe it.

Your WHOLE fleet que may have been lack of resources make sure you have enough before you do that, especially at the beginning of the game.

Other than that I was under the impression that 1.06 fixed the other bugs you desribed, although I have not had much time with the new patch.

[DasTactic]

Good comments Hondo1375.

1. Agree. Are you zooming with keys or the mouse wheel? I'd hate to be doing this without the mouse wheel. Even with the mouse wheel it can take a bit of time getting used to how it works but I think this is about as good as it will get. The alternative of zooming to the centre of the screen rather than zooming to the mouse would be very painful.

2. The automated refuelling can be frustrating and I think a 'Holding pattern' command would be useful. But a ship without fuel is basically dead so overall I'm happy to let the AI control this aspect as a basic default. One of the aspects I enjoy is working my way around the fuel logistics when attacking. I don't mean the clicking, but rather planning if I need a supply ship; where it will be deployed; how far away from the battle will it be; does it need protection; etc. So an attack in a distant sector is usually a process of developing the fuelling bridge-head first, then attacking the planet.

3a. I thought this had been fixed.

3b. This is frustrating but isn't a bug. We've been pushing to get some sort of report that will show which resources are required to fill construction orders on particular planets or constructors. That is basically the problem, there will not be enough of a particular resource. If the planet is outside of freighter range then the resources will not arrive. If you don't have enough space ports (to support a good freighter network) then it will still take a long time for resources to arrive. You need to micromanage this to find out what you need at present. I wrote an AAR http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2495880&mpage=1&key= that deals alot with distance problems in both attack planning and establishing a network.

[hondo1375]

Thanks for the reply.

ORIGINAL: lordxorn

Regarding your fuel situation, it is alot painless when you design around this. All my designs are fuel tank heavy so my fleet can actually have some deployment time. Of course the obligatory Solar Panel is a must so you are not burning fuel just standing by.

Once I mastered this, fuel was never an issue like you describe it.

I was going with the default designs until the mid-game, and I did build some resupply ships that had big fuel tanks. I'm still mentally seeing resupply ships like tankers and effectively "outsourcing" the need for large tanks on my combat ships to them. May be I'll try your suggestion next time, although I'd still like to see a fleet tanker concept implemented.

ORIGINAL: lordxorn
Your WHOLE fleet que may have been lack of resources make sure you have enough before you do that, especially at the beginning of the game.

I wondered this too, but I'm not sure it was the case. I queued up a capital ship a few cruisers and some destroyer - about 8 in all, and bought them all at the same time. It was late in the came and I was quickly turning out ships and drowning in resources. Progress didn't even seem to start at one of them. I've still got the saved game so I'll take a look at the resources at the space port. [/quote]

[hondo1375]

Thanks Das123 for the comments.

ORIGINAL: Das123
1. Agree. Are you zooming with keys or the mouse wheel? I'd hate to be doing this without the mouse wheel.

I'm using the keys as I don't usually use a mouse wheel. I'll give it a go.

ORIGINAL: Das123
2. The automated refuelling can be frustrating and I think a 'Holding pattern' command would be useful. But a ship without fuel is basically dead so overall I'm happy to let the AI control this aspect as a basic default.

I mean something like the "holding pattern". I think the current level of automation has either gone too far or not far enough in this respect. What I mean by this, is that if I choose to send a ship somewhere it is going to run out of fuel then, Mr AI, please mind your own business and not keep trying to send it back to refuel. Otherwise, prevent me from sending it in the first place. At the moment I feel that the situation is somewhere in the middle and the worst of both worlds.

ORIGINAL: Das123
3a. I thought this had been fixed.

Unfortunately it has not. I've had several construction ships caught in the grip of a black hole burning fuel and going nowhere. I found a work around: I give them a refuel order and magically they can over come the gravitation pull and move forward. Then, just as they've moved away a little and about to warp I give them the build order. Needless to say this is a ridiculous amount of micromanagement for a game like this.

ORIGINAL: Das123
3b. This is frustrating but isn't a bug. We've been pushing to get some sort of report that will show which resources are required to fill construction orders on particular planets or constructors. That is basically the problem, there will not be enough of a particular resource. If the planet is outside of freighter range then the resources will not arrive. If you don't have enough space ports (to support a good freighter network) then it will still take a long time for resources to arrive. You need to micromanage this to find out what you need at present.

I'm not sure if this describes my situation as I was at my home planet large spaceport in the middle of my trade network. I'll take another look at the saved game.

[lordxorn]

Yeah regarding your ship building process definitely report it to Matrix and they can give it a look. That was suppose to be rectified two patches ago I believe.

I totally understand your immersion play style, because I too tried playing like that. I would look for a barren star to setup a re-fueler and deploy him, but back then the whole process was bugged. I have abandoned that concept since, and haven't needed to worry about that later on with bigger fuel tanks.

[WoodMan]

There is a rare bug maybe you experienced it, can you actually see the half built fleet at your spaceport?  If not, the rare bug is that sometimes ships float off while under construction!!!  The construction stops, but they still appear as under construction until you cancel it.  I had a pile of half built Destroyer floating in space in my last game after I queued them at my Spaceport and they randomly floated off.  This bug is rare, but I have seen it a couple of times since I got the game a few months back.

[Spacecadet]

#2 - I believe you can modify this behavior some in one of the menus.
When you look at the ships screen when you select a ship you can view the design and set attack and fueling (I believe) options.
If it's not there, then in the design it should be in the upper left part of the screen. In this area it would affect all new ships built on this profile.

I'm pretty sure it's one or both places, but if not, I know I've seen the option somewhere in the settings options - it could even be under the advanced options.

[hondo1375]

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

There is a rare bug maybe you experienced it, can you actually see the half built fleet at your spaceport?  If not, the rare bug is that sometimes ships float off while under construction!!!  The construction stops, but they still appear as under construction until you cancel it.  I had a pile of half built Destroyer floating in space in my last game after I queued them at my Spaceport and they randomly floated off.  This bug is rare, but I have seen it a couple of times since I got the game a few months back.

That's it! I remember now, when I click "go to" on the ship list it takes me to a stack of hexagons in space. I forgot that bit of it because it was so mad "it did not compute"

Edit: I just took another look at them. They are triangles not hexagons. They have the flashing navigational lights, but that's it - magical floating navigational lights. I gave the fleet a refuel order to see what would happen, and all the empty triangles with their navigational lights started moving! They got to the planet and stopped and that was it. A strange little bug ... cost me 50k credits too to build that ghost fleet.

[hondo1375]

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet

#2 - I believe you can modify this behavior some in one of the menus.
When you look at the ships screen when you select a ship you can view the design and set attack and fueling (I believe) options.
If it's not there, then in the design it should be in the upper left part of the screen. In this area it would affect all new ships built on this profile.

I'm pretty sure it's one or both places, but if not, I know I've seen the option somewhere in the settings options - it could even be under the advanced options.

Thanks for the suggestion. I looked around all the place I could think of and couldn't find the option you mentioned. Let me know if you find it.

[Gertjan]

More to the point, I think some mechanic where tankers can be sent with fleets and auto refuel the fleet would take a lot of the pain out of this. Other games and RL do it like this, so why not? Also, tankers set to auto should be able to fly around your empire tracking down out of fuel ships limping around and auto refuel them Currently, micomanaging this is zero fun. Amateurs might study strategy, while professionals study logistics, but that's because strategy is a lot more fun than logistics.

I couldn't agree more. Refueling has improved with some of the upgrades, but tankers would be perfect! They could exist besides supply ships.
While I enjoy the concept of limited range for ships, fuel runs out rather quickly and some extension (for a good price) of range would be great.

Regarding your fuel situation, it is alot painless when you design around this. All my designs are fuel tank heavy so my fleet can actually have some deployment time. Of course the obligatory Solar Panel is a must so you are not burning fuel just standing by.

That's a micromanagement solution. I believe that the game's automation should already do this. A suggestion for a future upgrade?

[WoodMan]

There are some options in the design screen but I can't remember what they do, I don't use that screen [:D]

If you go to the main Options screen, then click Empire Settings (about half way down) in that new menu there is a refuel option for fleets.  Default setting is for the fleet to refuel when 30% of the fleet need to, if you changed this to like 90% or something, the fleet would go longer, but you might end up with all ships out of fuel in the middle of nowhere if your not careful [;)]

Edit: It might not completely solve your prob, but it might help a little

[hondo1375]

If you go to the main Options screen, then click Empire Settings (about half way down) in that new menu there is a refuel option for fleets.  Default setting is for the fleet to refuel when 30% of the fleet need to, if you changed this to like 90% or something, the fleet would go longer, but you might end up with all ships out of fuel in the middle of nowhere if your not careful

Edit: It might not completely solve your prob, but it might help a little

Thanks. I in fact saw that option and thought it was for something else (to do with the "prepare and bombard" order, and as a result I'd set it to 30%!). Like you say, if doesn't solve the problem, but it might help.

[Roller]

I have played a couple of rounds now with 1.0.6 being out. There is definite improvement from 1.0.4, which I admittedly did not play much because of the bugs (mostly resupply ship bug and refitting bugs). I shelved the game and made a more serious effort now.

The major things I learned lately:

1. Micromanage the exploration of at least the sector you start in and the 9 sectors around it. Always have 5-10 exploration ships going. Divide them into 2 waves. The first wave only "moves" to star systems to find colonizable planets. Colonize immediately [edit: Colonies on planets with quality of 50%+ never cost money, with low populations they just create no tax income, which lasts for a long time]. The second wave does the painstaking exploration for resources. After the first 10 sectors or so put them all on auto or tell them to fully explore certain sectors.

2. Build 5 construction ships and regularly check the expansion planner for newly discovered luxury good sites. Mine all of them out to one sector beyond your empire. Except maybe the ice planet/moon resources, because there are so many. The secret is to saturate your market with luxury goods, so that every single colony is swimming in them. Sprinkle some strategic goods inbetween by putting one or two ships on auto.

3. Have a rapid reaction force or two on standby to kill pirates and creatures at mining or colonization sites to get access to the places.

4. Build a small star port at every colony [edit: This is false. Space ports, as a commerce center, do not necessarily do good things for the colony. If you build a port everywhere from the start it is likely you run out of money]. When you feel there is a traffic congestion or need a larger fleet base, upgrade.

5. Constantly advance the storyline. It gives out game shattering stuff and toys. Actually it is almost too good, or have I just been lucky? [edit: Yes. The other races find and use those toys too. At least it seems so].


I am just playing a game, restless difficulty, with 1000 stars and slow tech advancement, and I have 80 colonies, a world devastator and two dozen ancient capital ships while my regular ships are still rooting around with the tech level 1 blasters and missiles. The rest of the tech is maybe TL 2-3. I keep good relations with most people and am able to buy tech for cheap, much cheaper than developing it myself. The game before it was similar. I could park my WD in orbit of any given homeworld and wipe out 80% of the galaxy's population in maybe 10 engagements, because true colony population growth hadn't kicked off yet and everybody's economic power mostly still rested on the homeworlds. I realize that a higher tech AI fleet with capital ships can give a WD a headache though.

[Gertjan]

Thanks for the tips!

[Spacecadet]

ORIGINAL: hondo1375

If you go to the main Options screen, then click Empire Settings (about half way down) in that new menu there is a refuel option for fleets.  Default setting is for the fleet to refuel when 30% of the fleet need to, if you changed this to like 90% or something, the fleet would go longer, but you might end up with all ships out of fuel in the middle of nowhere if your not careful

Edit: It might not completely solve your prob, but it might help a little

Thanks. I in fact saw that option and thought it was for something else (to do with the "prepare and bombard" order, and as a result I'd set it to 30%!). Like you say, if doesn't solve the problem, but it might help.

Yes, this is part of what I was referring too.

(O)ptions -> Empire Settings -> Fleet Attack Settings

There are two adjustments you can make here.

I could have swore there was another adjustment on fueling, but I don't remember where it was at the moment.

[hondo1375]

I could have swore there was another adjustment on fueling, but I don't remember where it was at the moment.

Funny you should say that ... I seem to remember reading something in one of the changelogs but can't find it now.

[Equendil]

I'm pretty sure I've seen ships use resupply ships to refuel even though they were not deployed. Of course you'd have to deploy & fill up once before sending your resupply ship away, and I don't expect it to work if you're moving at warp speed, would have to stop the resupply ship first, but that's good enough for a tanker I should think. Will have to double check.

[Gertjan]

Really, would be good to know!

[hondo1375]

ORIGINAL: Equendil
I'm pretty sure I've seen ships use resupply ships to refuel even though they were not deployed.

I'm pretty sure I've seen this too. I suppose three key differences between a tanker and a resupply ship acting as a tanker are:
1. You can't fill the resupply ship at a spaceport, but have to deploy at an appropriate gas world, which is not as convenient;
2. I had one situation where the resupply ship was full of the wrong type of fuel, and there was no way to dump it in space and fill up on the other type. Tankers would be free to load and unload their cargo at spaceports, or perhaps even jettison it into space;
3. I dream of tankers set to auto warping around my empire refueling empty ships.