another 3.0 question

[Nomad]

A problem/quirk (whatever ) is that Darwin and Cloncurry are 9 hexes apart. This means that you can not transfer range 2 fighter a/c from other parts of Australia. My question is: is this intentional or something lost in the crack?

[BillBrown]

since this never got answered, i am bumping it. also, I can not get aircraft to attack from Akyab, anyone know why?

[CynicAl]

Originally posted by BillBrown
since this never got answered, i am bumping it. also, I can not get aircraft to attack from Akyab, anyone know why?

What's the supply situation at Akyab?

[BillBrown]

supply and fuel were 4-5K. tried with SEAC and 14th ARMY control. had hurricanes, p40s,and beuforts. target was rangoon supplys. went at least 6 turns with no attack.

/edit interesting, in early 1942 i could not get a/c to attack from akyab but in 1943 they attacked fine!! who knows??

[Mika Väliviita]

I've been examining this too, and I think it depends on the size of the airfield, actual range to target, planes range value, available fuel (and maybe supply) amount of escorts that can fly all the way, and the enemy azoc. And a random factor. Also there may be a dependence on the current year, as there is in so many other things.

Mika

[Capt. Harlock]

Back to Nomad's original question. (A little patience, you guys...) The nine-hex distance has been there all along. It is inconvenient, but not an absolute barrier. Although ANZAC LCU's cannot be loaded on board ships, LBA's can be. Form a convoy of MCS vessels (a dozen 8000-ton ships should be adequate to transport even a 50-fighter squadron) at Townsville or Cairns, and then sail up the coast to Darwin. But watch out for Japanese AZOCs, especially if they've taken Port Moresby.

[BillBrown]

the problem is, in the original (ver 1.1), the p40 and p39 had a range of 3. now the australian wiraways auto switch to p40, with a range of 2, and can not be transfered to protect broome and darwin!! I just don't think this is right.

[Skyros]

Is it me or has anyone else noticed Allied convoys passing by Japan when playing the campaign game. I am playing Alllies and Japanes is controlled by AI. It could also be that I am always playing late at night.hmm look at that trail of pretty yellow dots!!!:D

[CynicAl]

I'm pretty sure the "pretty yellow dots" are Japanese convoys. Allies are blue.

[Dean Robb]

I've noticed some odd behaviors in v3.0 myself:

TGs with with good speeds moving only 3-4 hexes when they should be moving 20 or so.

Air groups that won't attack their designated targets. For example, the Japanese took Adak very early on. I moved an A-20 squadron to Dutch Harbor to keep it under attack until I could get around to recapturing it. The A-20s (plenty of fuel, supply and PPs, HQ target, yada yada yada) bombed 3 or 4 turns in Jan '42 and then never again! Not once until I retook it in Jun '42.

And I've never had an airgroup from Kendari drop a single egg on Ambon Island, even though it's both SWPac's target and the air target for my B-17s and B-25 (w/3 P-40 squadrons). I waited for 10 turns. Planes from Darwin will, but not anything from Kendari. I've even tried rotating different squadrons in with no luck.

And B-24s on Macassar refused to bomb Jolo - after 4 months I finally retargetted them elsewhere.

And some LCU won't attack, either. Stillwell's KMTs have been at Zhanjiang for almost a year (I created the paths with the editor) and despite lots of PPs, 99% readiness, Buckner as their CO, etc. they won't attack.

It's as if the "random factor" was massively increased...

BTW Bill: Use your editor to change the range on the P-40. According to the official Air Force history site,
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p40.htm,
it had a range of 850 miles. With (unless I'm badly mistaken) one hex being 250 miles, the correct range should be 3. And it should be a fighter-bomber, not a pure fighter - they carried 500 lb bombs frequently.

[Capt. Harlock]

The problem with Dutch Harbor is probably due to the "Arctic Weather Zone". From November through March, winter conditions apply, and the chances of air missions decrease tremendously. (They aren't so good in April or October, either.) As for the LCU's, remember that they need odds of 4:1, or a very agressive "on-the-spot" commander, to attack reliably.

[Dean Robb]

I considered the AWZ as the problem, but the timeframe was Jan-Jun, so I *should* have gotten in some late attacks; and even with the Zone you can get in a flight now and then. That might be it...just bad die rolls...but I've not encountered the phenomenon before that far east. Usually it's when I'm out on the tip of the Aleutians that the Zone becomes an issue.

On the LCU thing, Buckner is a 5A, 6L so it shouldn't be aggressiveness. It might, however, be the odds - I had forgotten about the 4:1 rule of thumb and intel ain't exactly specific

Thanks for the comments!

[CynicAl]

Welcome to the world of the badly mistaken. One hex is 100 nm, so according to your data, a P-40 ought to be able to fly 8 hexes. But that's range, not radius: one-way rather than a round trip. So dividing by 2, the aircraft should be able to fly missions out to 425 nm (4 hexes) away, right? Well, no. Combat flying guzzles gas; much, much worse than cruising. If there's even a chance of enemy fighters or flak in the target area (and any target worth attacking is worth defending), you have to allow a considerable amount of extra fuel for turning and burning. On top of that, pilots tend to be conservative about fuel matters, and whenever possible will allow themselves an adequate safety margin just in case any of a number of things which can go wrong, do go wrong. So let's say that a P-40 unit can fly missions out to a maximum of about 300 nm, or 3 hexes.

Now let's see how we can try to approximate that real-life performance in the game. The "range" figure for aircraft is in fact NOT the maximum combat radius (still less range) of the aircraft - it's the aircraft's maximum radius against moving targets, such as ships or LCUs. This accounts for time and fuel spent hunting for the targets whose last known position is usually at least a couple of hours old by the time the strike arrives over the target area. Aircraft can fly strikes against fixed targets, such as airfields and ports, out to 150% (rounded down) of their "range." So an aircraft with a range of 3, for example, will actually be able to attack (some) targets 4 hexes (400nm) away. That's a bit far for a P-40, leaving little reserve fuel - and no allowance for maneuvering. On the other hand, if the P-40's range is set to 2, it will still be able to launch strikes at a range of 3 hexes, which is Just Right. Also, note that an aircraft's transfer range when shifting from base to base is four times it's listed range figure; so a range of 2 means that a P-40 unit can move 8 hexes, about 800 nm, in one jump. Which, looking back a bit, is also Just Right. Hmm... maybe the P-40 ought to be a range 2 aircraft...

[BillBrown]

well cynacalai very good analysis. my only real problem with the situation is "would the australians not be able to send fighters to Darwin? I can just see them " Darwin is 900 miles away and we can only fly 800 so we will not send any fighters there". I do think that senario is crazy. they would have found a way. my real question is " should concluny be moved one hex to the north west?

[CynicAl]

Perhaps. Or you could do as Capt. Harlock suggested earlier - move them by ship. I prefer moving groups of fighters and light bombers by ship if they have to make more than one jump, anyway - each jump whittles down the number of operational a/c in the group and rebuilding after 3 or 4 jumps can really drop the group's experience, especially if you're playing the Japanese. You could let the air group sit and repair the damaged a/c at each stop - but if you have to allow time for that, then moving them by ship is probably faster. Heavy bomber groups are the exception - you don't often have an emergency situation that requires you to get B-29s on the scene right away; and besides, they have plenty of range for most purposes.

[BillBrown]

lets look at the range question a little closer.

since pacwar uses 100 mile(nm or sm) hexes, an aircraft having a 'range' of 2 hexs has a range of 101 to 299 miles. probably the actual range would be a normal distribution around 200 miles. one thing to keep in mind is that a war game simulation has many, many comprimises. you can not always take real world data and say a war game simulation is incorrect. sometimes the designer can only make the closest approximation possible. all that said, i think cynicAIs analysis is very good. i am happy with the 2 range of the p-40 and p-39.

as to the other resposnes, yes it is more economical to transport aircraft by ship, but there are time when i want to air transfer them. also in the 1942 time frame it is hard and expensive to try to transport aircraft to darwin by ship, expecially when you don't have any/many fighter aircraft in darwin to protect the convoys. as to editing the p-40 range, that does a global modification when i am asking about a single, particular problem/quirk. also in this time frame the allies do not have all that many fighter groups and i like to have 2 or 3 training/building in conclurry that can be air transfered to either darwin or New Guinea if needed.

I still have not heard from Matrix about this, i do wish they would say something about it. If it was intentional on their part ok, if it is something that fell through the crack then maybe it can be fixed in 3.1 or left the same, i would just like to know.

that brings up another aspect of me doing an edit of my own files, if i then play someone in a PBEM game, which file are we going to use? the 'official' one from matrix or my/their edited one? It can lead to problems.

[Dean Robb]

CynicalAl does have a very good analysis, but the conclusion is, IMO, incorrect. I see no particular problem with having a P-40 attack ground targets at 400 nm, for several reasons:

1. The assumptions on range are based on INTERNAL fuel loads only - use of drop tanks (common, but not modelled in PW) increase range.

2. The 1.5x range factor is rounded down to accomodate the "reserve fuel" situation as well as the game engine can.

3. As CynicalAl pointed out, pilots will do everything they can to increase mileage - lean out the mixture, avoid headwinds, etc. One can reasonably expect that if a mission is near the max range of the aircraft, the pilots will fly in max conserve mode.

So, methinks (also based on historical readings of pilot reports) that a range of 3 for P-40s is good. When you compare that range to notoriously short-legged aircraft like the Spitfire (range 2 in PW), you also see that the P-40's range should be better than that of the Spit.

And for the record, I really dislike the loss of experience that ferrying aircraft incurs. Wish it could be coded out. Combat lossing, yes. Ferry lossing, no.

[Jeremy Pritchard]

If you have external fuel tanks, you do not have a bomb load (especially for the early fighters).

Also, statistics posted throughout the world (internet and book) tend to show maximum statistics, i.e., maximum bomb load, maximum range, maximum speed. HOWEVER, these NEVER match. You cannot reach maximum range with maximum bomb load or maximum speed. Fully loading aircraft SEVERELY cut their range. Also, maximum range is that, once they reach this distance, they have to turn around and leave. The 400 range you state would be this, they get there, and immediately return home.

Even bombing requires at least 20 minutes of flying time over the target, while fighter sweeps usually longer. Plus, when you are fighting over a combat zone, your cares are not for maximizing fuel, but maximizing your aircraft's abilities, which really eats up a lot of fuel.

There has been a lof of work on aircraft loads and range from the old PacWar Listserv for the past 10 years. These are their results from a decade of research and testing for this particular game. I tend to trust their experience and dedication to reality.

Also, ferrying aircraft from base to base REALLY DID eat up a lot of experience. The IJNAF and IJAAF did this a lot, and payed for it. The Allies tended not to do this, and only flew aircraft from a 2nd Line Base to a Front Line Base, and used shipping to move from a rear base to the 2nd Line. Read any report on aircraft ferrying, and there will be substantial accidents.

[GET TRANSPT]

I have no problem sending australians, americans et al to darwin. the game allows the aussies to convert their wirraways to blenheim 1f's. sure it costs experience, but it works. then re-convert them to f4f's or hurricanes . for usaaf pilots, convert p-40's to p-35 republics to get extra transfer range. again, experience suffers (a fair penalty), but one doesn't have to do so much sea convoying.

for b-26's. convert to b-25's (great range!)

the key is to immediately remove form combat all blenheim 1f and p-35 republics to keep at leasy 50 of each type in the pool (to allow for replacing short range planes)

[Dean Robb]

Didn't most of the Allied AFs use ferry pilots for long-range transfers behind the lines instead of combat pilots? Perhaps that contributed to the high loss rates - inexperience?