Night Bombing w/GPS??

[Zemke]

Playing PBEM game for some time as Japan. My opponent has been using night bombing to hit my air fields with the allied two and four engined bombers. Ususlly I get hit with 20-30 MB at night, or a mix of MB and HB sometime more, sometimes less. What is happeneing is my airfields have been rendered usless by this bombing. Correct me if I am wrong, but given what the British went through trying to night bomb in Europe, I would think hitting an airfield at night would be pretty darn hard, or any other "point" targets. I can see hitting area targets, like cites no problem, but I think this is not a historical result, and hitting a blacked out air field at night would be pretty hard considering the Birtish seldom got within miles of their intented targets at night. I guess the Allied bomber force get an early upgrade to GPS navigation.

It is bad enough the Allied HB are untouchable in the day, now all allied bombers are untouchable at night and very accurate as well.

And for the record, I am not a JFB, I am playing two PBEMs, one as Japan and one as Allies. I have not used this "tactic" as the Allies in my other PBEM.

[Smeulders]

Option 1: HR
Option 2: Reply in kind, I don't believe the problem is limited to one side.

[crsutton]

Yes, later in the game, night bombing may be the Japanese players only option. However, Allied night fighters do work. Best to discuss this with your opponent and work out a solution.

[Zemke]

What I would like is this to be patched at some point so it does not affect either side, as I think it is unrealistic and not very historical.

[oldman45]

In my most recent readings of air ops in the pacific, the US used night bombing in the central pacific if the ranges were too far for escort, this was done even in 44. (Morrison Vol VIII) Just a thought, airfields cut out of a jungle/heavy woods are very visible even in reduced light. Atolls, while they were rather small, do present an easy target. The US planes also didn't fly at 30k they were under 15k most of the time.

I am not sure there is an easy fix other than a house rule.

[cantona2]

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Option 1: HR
Option 2: Reply in kind, I don't believe the problem is limited to one side.

Yep

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

Playing PBEM game for some time as Japan. My opponent has been using night bombing to hit my air fields with the allied two and four engined bombers. Ususlly I get hit with 20-30 MB at night, or a mix of MB and HB sometime more, sometimes less. What is happeneing is my airfields have been rendered usless by this bombing. Correct me if I am wrong, but given what the British went through trying to night bomb in Europe, I would think hitting an airfield at night would be pretty darn hard, or any other "point" targets. I can see hitting area targets, like cites no problem, but I think this is not a historical result, and hitting a blacked out air field at night would be pretty hard considering the Birtish seldom got within miles of their intented targets at night. I guess the Allied bomber force get an early upgrade to GPS navigation.

It is bad enough the Allied HB are untouchable in the day, now all allied bombers are untouchable at night and very accurate as well.

Have you tried fly CAP at night? Japanese fighters at night don't shot down anything, but I've noticed that they do reduce night bombing accuracy.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

What I would like is this to be patched at some point so it does not affect either side, as I think it is unrealistic and not very historical.

Another time this came, maybe 6-8 months ago, someone posted an account of the Japanese bombing Wake (?) with Betties, from some huge range away. It did happen. Moonlight, good dead-reckoning, and a steady hand on the stick helped I'm sure. An island is very much easier to bomb, if you can find it, than forested, rolling European countryside, from 20,000 ft. When I night bomb, I usually use 8,000 feet. Sometimes I get hits, often I don't. But it's worth the harrassment factor, certainly for the Allies early in places like Burma, where the devs gave the Japanese massive advantages in planes and pilots. Daylight anything as the allies is hopeless there in 1942.

I would be very much opposed to patching this out. If it's not favored by a playing pair, HR it.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

What I would like is this to be patched at some point so it does not affect either side, as I think it is unrealistic and not very historical.

Actually, during the prelude to the Normandy landings, it was found that RAF Bomber Command was MORE ACCURATE bombing at night than the US Eighth was during the day. True, results were pitifully inept when they started night bombing, but they got a whole lot better with practice, radar, and improved tactics.

The results in the game are a lot more historical and realistic than Japanese Torpedo Bombers hitting moving ships at sea while "level bombing" from 9,000 feet---which also happens regularly in the game.

[Zemke]

One, level bombing of any kind was NOT very accurate day or night in WWII as a rule, there were exceptions, but in general level bombing was not very accurate, and night bombing would be even more inaccurate. In other words, bombing accuracy was just plain bad. See post war studies in Europe of bombing accuracy. I know night bombing was used, but the effects were little more than harrasment. I know of no historical examples where fairly large air fields or any air fields were shut down due to night bombing only.  Night bombing area targets, yeah I got that, got no issue with that, but hitting point target or specific targets like an air field and doing enough damage to make them unusable, I am not buying it.  If either side wanted to shut down air operations at an air field, they did it with day light bombing raids not at night.  Night raids could and did get hits, but the over all results were insignificant, when compared to daylight bombing, and this applies to both sides. Also, I don't care what advantages or disadvantages this gives to either side, my point is it is not a realistic outcome and should be changed.

[Zemke]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

What I would like is this to be patched at some point so it does not affect either side, as I think it is unrealistic and not very historical.

Actually, during the prelude to the Normandy landings, it was found that RAF Bomber Command was MORE ACCURATE bombing at night than the US Eighth was during the day. True, results were pitifully inept when they started night bombing, but they got a whole lot better with practice, radar, and improved tactics.

The results in the game are a lot more historical and realistic than Japanese Torpedo Bombers hitting moving ships at sea while "level bombing" from 9,000 feet---which also happens regularly in the game.

This is an apples and oranges comparison, so I don't think they are "a lot more historical and realistic than Japanese Torpedo Bombers hitting moving ships at sea while "level bombing" from 9,000 feet", I think if anything it is worse. The reason is, in the game all planes that attack with torpedoes can be set to 9,000 ft, but it is assumed they drop to sea level when making their attack runs. They are not dropping torpedos from 9,000 ft. Neither side should be able to bomb point targets, and expect to hit much of anything at night. Bombing cities, that is different, it was routine and it worked, however, there is a big difference between hitting an airfield at night and a city, is all I am saying, and all I am asking for is not that there would never be damage to an airfield getting bombed at night, but that the chances of damage be reduced or that it be toned down a bit. My Japanese opponent is also bombing me at night, but he seems to not hit anything. So this is not an Allied vs Japan issue or game balance issue for me, but a realism/historical issue.

[Zemke]

Let me say this, out of all the other issues with WitP:AE out there, for me, this stands out the most, but over all I think WitP:AE is the hands down best war game out there right now, and in general replicates events pretty darn close, or close enough for me.  I don't even have any issues with the fighter combat model so many complained about, or the artillery, or whatever else, but this night bombing thing is really not very historically accurate at all IMHO.

[PresterJohn001]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

Playing PBEM game for some time as Japan. My opponent has been using night bombing to hit my air fields with the allied two and four engined bombers. Ususlly I get hit with 20-30 MB at night, or a mix of MB and HB sometime more, sometimes less. What is happeneing is my airfields have been rendered usless by this bombing. Correct me if I am wrong, but given what the British went through trying to night bomb in Europe, I would think hitting an airfield at night would be pretty darn hard, or any other "point" targets. I can see hitting area targets, like cites no problem, but I think this is not a historical result, and hitting a blacked out air field at night would be pretty hard considering the Birtish seldom got within miles of their intented targets at night. I guess the Allied bomber force get an early upgrade to GPS navigation.

It is bad enough the Allied HB are untouchable in the day, now all allied bombers are untouchable at night and very accurate as well.

Have you tried fly CAP at night? Japanese fighters at night don't shot down anything, but I've noticed that they do reduce night bombing accuracy.

This seems to work. A noticable difference.

[Zeta16]

I was losing 6 to 7 planes a night to raids of 8 to 12 US bombers in my game with freeboy in the Spring from night bombing. That seemed a little high to me and I was using Japanese fighters on night CAP as well.

[FatR]

It is possible to keep damage from night attacks within manageable limits by putting a night CAP and not overstacking airfields. The downside is, until you get some armored aircraft, this will cost your units that provide this night CAP against Allied 4E. The odds during nighttime air combat are shifted significantly in the favor of bombers. Presumably at least dedicated nightfighters become available.

[PresterJohn001]

The other way to think about it, is at least they're not being used during the day when they can be even worse.
 
Other counters are to find ther base and night strike them there. Allied 4E's take a while to repair and have low replacement rates. Asymetrical fight.

[CapAndGown]

I have found that placing a CAP at night does a lot of good in reducing the effectiveness of the bombers.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

What I would like is this to be patched at some point so it does not affect either side, as I think it is unrealistic and not very historical.

Actually, during the prelude to the Normandy landings, it was found that RAF Bomber Command was MORE ACCURATE bombing at night than the US Eighth was during the day. True, results were pitifully inept when they started night bombing, but they got a whole lot better with practice, radar, and improved tactics.

The results in the game are a lot more historical and realistic than Japanese Torpedo Bombers hitting moving ships at sea while "level bombing" from 9,000 feet---which also happens regularly in the game.

This is an apples and oranges comparison, so I don't think they are "a lot more historical and realistic than Japanese Torpedo Bombers hitting moving ships at sea while "level bombing" from 9,000 feet", I think if anything it is worse. The reason is, in the game all planes that attack with torpedoes can be set to 9,000 ft, but it is assumed they drop to sea level when making their attack runs. They are not dropping torpedos from 9,000 ft. Neither side should be able to bomb point targets, and expect to hit much of anything at night. Bombing cities, that is different, it was routine and it worked, however, there is a big difference between hitting an airfield at night and a city, is all I am saying, and all I am asking for is not that there would never be damage to an airfield getting bombed at night, but that the chances of damage be reduced or that it be toned down a bit. My Japanese opponent is also bombing me at night, but he seems to not hit anything. So this is not an Allied vs Japan issue or game balance issue for me, but a realism/historical issue.

Without getting in the middle of that particular argument, when he said

... Japanese Torpedo Bombers hitting moving ships at sea while "level bombing" from 9,000 feet...

I think he actually meant them level bombing as in using bombs not torpedoes.

[Zeta16]

ORIGINAL: FatR

It is possible to keep damage from night attacks within manageable limits by putting a night CAP and not overstacking airfields. The downside is, until you get some armored aircraft, this will cost your units that provide this night CAP against Allied 4E. The odds during nighttime air combat are shifted significantly in the favor of bombers. Presumably at least dedicated nightfighters become available.

I used regular fighters and night fighters. It went down a little, but did not make to much of a difference. My airfields where not even over stacked and these where not atoll or island bases.

[RUDOLF]

HR can be:

Only City Attack MP allowed for Night Bombing.