Supply is SNAFU

[xe5]

I was wondering why my XXX Corps BGs were running out of Ammo and Fuel when north of the Rijn.
So I ran some tests using a 2 second game timer so I could quickly cycle through battles. As suspected, the game's Supply function is fugged.

The custom campaign - Supply Test - I used for testing is attached if anyone cares to follow the bouncing ball at home...

[Andrew Williams]

Thanks - I don't think it has been teted previously

[xe5]

The test campaign setup is depicted below. At start, the Allies control all the maps. In all cases the Axis BGs are entering their respective maps from off-board - the various "from ..." VLs. The Axis controls no VLs that should interefere with Allied supply.

[xe5]

Given the starting conditions, it is expected that all Allied BGs supply levels would be HIGH with Full (++) incoming supply since they can all trace a direct supply path from an Allied controlled exit VL on their map through Allied controlled maps back to the Allied major supply depot on Valkenswaard.

This is not the case. The Allied starting supply conditions are shown below. Only the Allied BGs on Schaarsbergen and Valkenhuizen have supply levels that are HIGH with Full incoming supply. The other Allied BGs start with HIGH levels and LIMITED (+) incoming supply, meaning these BGs are tracing supply paths back to a minor depot.

[xe5]

After the first battle at Pannerden (lower right) the Allied supply situation is as shown. Its a mystery why the supply status for any of Allied BGs other than the one at Pannerden would change, much less why those levels would change to OUT OF SUPPLY (X) in all cases but Renkum Heath where there is a minor Allied depot.

[xe5]

On a related note, whats the deal with the Supply State/Effect matrix on p.58?

In game there is only one "green" state. The "Normal" state on the matrix should be labeled (yellow) not (green). The "Low" state on the matrix should be labeled (red) not (yellow). The "None" state should be labeled (black) not (red).

And the Fuel Level Effect of the "None" state should be 60% Chance for vehicle immobility, not .60%

[Andrew Williams]

Played a few rounds.

One BG (Grenedier guards at Heelsum) is out of Fuel and can no longer move... despite being able to trace a clear supply line to 3 barrel supply at valkensward and various other single barrels. It has battled each turn, it is now movt turn 0600 on 18th.

130th Bde at Pannerden is also out of supply but can also trace a supply route.  It can move though, I guess because it's  not an armoured BG.

All the Brit BG's West of Schaars bergen have limited supply all to the east have Full (similar to yoiur pic in post 4).... can't see why they would differ.

[Andrew Williams]

On a related note, whats the deal with the Supply State/Effect matrix on p.58?

Same "matrix" in WaR and probably CC5 manuals.... although it does say 60% not .60%

[xe5]

After the second battle (Heelsum) the supply level for that BG also drops to Normal (yellow) and Out Of Supply (X) like the BG at Pannerden. However, the weirdness factor increases when the level for the BG at Renkum Heath drops to High/Out of Supply, matching the levels of all the other Allied BGs yet to fight on turn 1.

[xe5]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams
Played a few rounds.

One BG (Grenedier guards at Heelsum) is out of Fuel and can no longer move... despite being able to trace a clear supply line to 3 barrel supply at valkensward and various other single barrels. It has battled each turn, it is now movt turn 0600 on 18th.

13th Bde at Pannerden is also out of supply but can also trace a supply route.  It can move though, I guess because it's  not an armoured BG.

All the Brit BG's West of Schaars bergen have limited supply all to the east have Full (similar to yoiur pic in post 4).... can't see why they would differ.

Ok, I think we can agree there are clearly problems with supply in LSA without the need for additional diagrams.

On a somewhat related issue, I'd like to see the BG types for the 43rd and 50th Division BGs changed from Infantry to Armored Infantry. These were highly mechanized formations that currently are unaffected on the strategic level by lack of fuel.

[Andrew Williams]

I was going to suggest that the Brits didn't hold exit VL toward their supply lines (ie cut off on the Tac map)... checking showed they do and still hve no fuel.

[Andrew Williams]

Tried a similar scenario with WaR 4.50.07b and could not replicate... supply seemed to be working as designed. (more testing needed)

[Andrew Williams]

yeh... pretty sure the 43rd didn't March all the way to Arnhem supporting Gren Guards.

[Tejszd]

Two things might be happening here but development would have to confirm;

1) is there a limit preventing all BG's from tracing supply to the three barrels at Valkenswaard? If so then those BG's out of range or above the max quantity are getting supply from a minor depot resulting in a single "+". If a BG with minor supply moves and fights in the same turn the fuel level will drop by 2 and be replenished 1 on the next movement turn.
2) the X for BG's out of supply is being improperly shown and supply on the next movement turn should be correct

[Andrew Williams]

Is the minor supply overwriting or pushing in ahead of the 3 barrel?

[STIENER]

is RJIN Dutch for RHINE?

good find you guys! [:)]

[Andrew Williams]

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijn

[xe5]

A BG that moves and fights on the same turn only loses 1 fuel level. This is counterintuitive because if it moves, it uses 1 fuel level, or if it fights it uses 1 fuel level. So basic logic would argue that doing both during the same turn should use 2 fuel levels. Inexplicably, it doesnt. If moving and fighting used 2 fuel levels youd have situations where a BG would burn its last fuel level moving and be out of fuel during battle.

The out of supply X is being improperly applied. At the start of turn 2, incoming supply does become available to the Allied BGs that had been out of supply during turn 1, but its still not "correct". It is again "Limited" (Minor) as above when it should be Full. Except for Velp. Here incoming supply oddly became Full on turn 2.

My guess is that part of the problem is because the supply paths are being traced by the shortest route (fewest maps) possible. As I'd pointed out some time ago, supply can be traced across a ferry but doing so 'limits' the incoming supply capacity to that provided by a Minor depot. The Allied BGs with limited incoming supply may have had their supply routes traced across a ferry because that was the shortest path. Even when a BG has multiple "shortest paths", some across bridges, others across ferries - the game may not distinguish that a path across a ferry is inferior to an equidistant path across a bridge. Supply paths are obviously being recalculated after every battle. Where multiple shortest paths are involved, these recalculations may choose a bridge path rather than the previously chosen ferry path, thus leading to an incoming supply 'upgrade' as mentioned at Velp above.

[Andrew Williams]

As I'd pointed out some time ago, supply can be traced across a ferry but doing so 'limits' the incoming supply capacity to that provided by a Minor depot.

That makes sense.... but not if there is a better route supply wise.

Supply paths are obviously being recalculated after every battle.

I'm sure it is supposed to only be calculated turn 1.... (although that may have been a deliberate change, is it in the manual?)

[Tejszd]

You are right Xe5 about only dropping 1 fuel level. The manual does state "If a Battle Group moves or fights, it uses 1 fuel level."

The other thing to keep in mind for the BG's with a single plus sign (right or wrong about being supplied from a minor depot) is "If a Battle Group can trace supply to a minor depot, then it regains 1 fuel and 1 ammo level (to a maximum level of 2 for each)." Thus a BG with minor supply will never get back to full supply.