Support units - artillery

[DBeves]

If I read the manual correctly - you cannot manually attach artillery support units to combat units only to fortified zones.

Does this mean they can be auto assigned to combat units ie if the assignment option is not locked or does the auto assign also not attach to combat units ?

I dont get the rationale behind this rule - even less so if its only the manual assignment you cant do ..

[jhdeerslayer]

I took this as you have to attach to the HQ and the combat units get its artillery that way.

[Flaviusx]

What it means is that for most combat units (except forts as you noted) they will be added only as reserves during the course of combat. The better your leadership, the stronger the possibility of reinforcement.

So far as the Soviets are concerned, they heavily centralized use of artillery as a matter of doctrine and preferred to manage these at a HQ level. Eventually they would form divisions with these subunits. They really shouldn't be directly attached to ordinary combat formations from a doctrinal standpoint. Not sure what the justification here would be from a German standpoint.

If and when we get a War in the West I would personally argue that British and American divisions should be allowed direct artillery attachments, but that argument will have to wait for a while, heh.

[ComradeP]

The automatic movement of support units is between HQ's, it doesn't affect those attached to combat units.

Artillery units can only join a battle through a HQ making its support unit check.

[DBeves]

ORIGINAL: Deerslayer

I took this as you have to attach to the HQ and the combat units get its artillery that way.

Thats partly what I am looking for an answer on - the manual only says you cant attach artillery support directly to combat units - only fortified zones - it doesnt confirm or deny - and I havent seen any artillery support units participate in battle.

Again - I dont get the rationale if it happens automatically why you cant do manually - and also the manual is not clear on whether it happens autoamatically or not.

Another point is if you set the preference screen to all HQs locked as far as support units go - if artillery is allowed to be assigned to combat units automatically and not manually - does the lock preference mean all your artillery units sit the entire game out cause you cant assign manually.

I am sure that corps and army level artillery was assigned to support combat operatioins

Sorry - but this has me baffled completley

[Flaviusx]

If your headquarters are locked, subunits attached to them will remain there and not be distributed. Those subunits would only be able to participate in combats related to combat formations attached to the HQ in question.

If you unlock the HQs, the subunits will be distributed throughout the HQ heirarchy in proportion to the various headquarter priorities. This occurs at the end of the turn, note. So they still would only partipate in combats for combat formations of the HQ they are attached to at the beginning of the turn.

[DBeves]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The automatic movement of support units is between HQ's, it doesn't affect those attached to combat units.

Artillery units can only join a battle through a HQ making its support unit check.

Edit .... sorry comrade you are typing faster than me

am I misunderstanding the terminology here - are support and attachment two different concepts ? I think that may be my misunderstanding here ...

[ComradeP]

Support units being send out by HQ's are not "attached", even temporarily, to a combat unit. They come from and return to HQ's and have no on-map presence of any kind. Flavio has explained what the locked HQ feature means in practice. The locked HQ feature in no way hinders participation of that HQ's support unit in a battle.

The crucial difference between support units attached to a HQ and support units attached to a combat unit is that those attached to a HQ might help any of the units commanded by that HQ, provided the leader makes his rolls, whilst those directly attached to combat units always help that combat unit in battle, but won't help any other unit. As artillery can't be directly attached to combat units, it's somewhat variable how many units help out in combat. With good leaders, you can get good support.

[DBeves]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Support units being send out by HQ's are not "attached", even temporarily, to a combat unit. They come from and return to HQ's and have no on-map presence of any kind. Flavio has explained what the locked HQ feature means in practice. The locked HQ feature in no way hinders participation of that HQ's support unit in a battle.

Ah thanks Comrade - re my edited post above - that explains my misunderstanding - they are different concepts - still not sure I understand the design decision but the rationale is now clear - I was confusing two separate concepts.

[ComradeP]

I edited my post with another clarification.

[Flaviusx]

They are different concepts.

Support comes from HQs. Subunits attached to HQs may or may not participate in combats involving their ordinary combat formations depending on leadership rolls.

Attachments to divisions (or Soviet corps) bypass this procedure entirely. The subunits get attached to that unit and will only help that particular combat formation. Artillery subunits in particular do not get this option at all and can only be used for support at the HQ level. Other subunits may be directly attached to combat formations.

Different combat formations are allowed different sorts of attachments.

As to whether or not it is better to rely on HQs or direct attachments, that depends and is itself a matter of debate among the testers. They both have advantages and disadvantages.

[DBeves]

Thanks both - it is clear now ...

I suppose the reality was that corps level artillery for example was only ever loaned to sub units not attached - whilst it might be different if a static defence was planned for.

[runyan99]

I still don't completely understand all aspects of this.

Take the lowest possible infantry corps HQ. If I lock it, does it matter? Does that mean it will not accept new support units from Group HQ?

Do I need to worry about new support units flowing down from OHK to Group to Corps HQs?

[Flaviusx]

If you lock an HQ it will neither accept new subunits from other HQs nor lose its subunits.

This option exists because sometimes you will prefer to keep your HQs as they are and not leave the distribution of subunits between HQs to the vagaries of the AI.

On the other hand, it is far cheaper in terms of APs to use the automated distribution system.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Support units being send out by HQ's are not "attached", even temporarily, to a combat unit. They come from and return to HQ's and have no on-map presence of any kind.

Support units are shown in the combat screen if their participating in combat correct? [&:]

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Support units being send out by HQ's are not "attached", even temporarily, to a combat unit. They come from and return to HQ's and have no on-map presence of any kind.

Support units are shown in the combat screen if their participating in combat correct? [&:]

Yes

[CarnageINC]

Does the Headquarters Unit have to be within a certain range for support units to be used, I assume that the combat units can not be isolated from there HQ's.  An example is arty, does the HQ have to be within 2 hexes of the enemy unit being attacked for arty to be in used in combat?

[runyan99]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Does the Headquarters Unit have to be within a certain range for support units to be used, I assume that the combat units can not be isolated from there HQ's.  An example is arty, does the HQ have to be within 2 hexes of the enemy unit being attacked for arty to be in used in combat?

Yeah but I think the range is 5 hexes.

[Flaviusx]

Correct, it is a 5 hex range. See rule 15.4 for details.

[ComradeP]

Support units are shown in the combat screen if their participating in combat correct?

What I was trying to say is that, although the units participate in combat as shown on the combat screen and can take losses, they're not physically present in the hex you're attacking from. As far as the game's concerned, they're still at the hex including your HQ, although again without an on-map presence.