Battleship Sailor

Rob Roberson · Post by **Rob Roberson** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 5:25 am

I have begun to fool around a bit with the editor and would like to create a what-if scenario and I am looking for some suggestions. The basic story behind the campaign is what if the airplane proved to not be such a decisive weapon as many big ship proponents believed prior to the war. What if Mitchell failed to sink those old ships, what if the Italian navy easily beat off those old British biplanes, what if no one ever thought to put a flat deck on a ship. Which would result in aircraft being used strictly as gunnery spotters and lookout patrols.

First I want to make the landbased air less effective against ships. Remove torpedo bombers and torpedos all together as an available weapon for aircraft.

The only sea going plane carrying ships should be seaplane tenders.

Now this of course opens up many things, first of all, if all that allied and japanese production had not gone into aircraft carriers...just what would the order of battle be like at the start of our Uncommon Valor campaign. Remember, Pearl Harbor didnt happen.

So Im asking for a little help, some suggestions of what ships (types/numbers) I should add. I think it will take a bit of time to come up with deployment times to keep the campaign more balanced, but I think it would be a fun what-if the airplane wasnt so devastating game.

any thoughts?

Rob

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:02 am

Without a Pearl harbor would there be a war with the US?

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:20 am

Hi, There was a PH. In Dec 1941 A Japanese TF launched a suprise strike against the USN with 8 BB's opening fire in the predawn darkness at the tied up ships from 25000 yds. Japanese float planes dropped illumantion flares and spotted for the gunfire. A TF of CA's and DD's laid in wait and ambushed the US ships as they sortee'd from port.

(Japan also opened the 1904 war with Russia with a suprise Torpedo attack on the Russian base at Port Arthur)

Yamamoto · Post by **Yamamoto** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:42 am

Well, the Kaga, Akagi, and Lexington classes would have been completed as Battlecruisers as they were originally intended to be. You can also replace the 250kg bombs on the dive bombers with the 60kg ones if you want to simulate a world where aircraft weren't as effective. It sounds like you have a cool scenario there. Good luck with it.

Yamamoto

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:55 am

There's so many ifs here. Since there are no carriers, what does the US have in their place? Do the Iowa class BBs show up earlier? are there more BBs in PH? Did PH have shore batteries to answer bombardments? Its definitely alternative history.

Rob Roberson · Post by **Rob Roberson** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:17 am

Good call Mogami and true...

Rob Roberson · Post by **Rob Roberson** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:18 am

Originally posted by Yamamoto
Well, the Kaga, Akagi, and Lexington classes would have been completed as Battlecruisers as they were originally intended to be. You can also replace the 250kg bombs on the dive bombers with the 60kg ones if you want to simulate a world where aircraft weren't as effective. It sounds like you have a cool scenario there. Good luck with it.

Yamamoto

Good idea, consider it done...

Battlecruisers eh...any idea where I can find the data on the guns they would of carried?

Rob Roberson · Post by **Rob Roberson** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:20 am

Originally posted by Drex
There's so many ifs here. Since there are no carriers, what does the US have in their place? Do the Iowa class BBs show up earlier? are there more BBs in PH? Did PH have shore batteries to answer bombardments? Its definitely alternative history.

No carriers means the battleship is the queen of the seas. I would expect to several types and groups. Maybe the "fast" battleships dont see light of day because there is no reason for them to have to keep up with carrier groups?

I think there would be more in Pearl and on the west coast...dispostiions would be interesting.

And guns facing out towards the sea would be in order (ie Singapore).

Great questions and good things to consider.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:22 am

The Bismarck was never sunk. She wreacked havoc on the shipping lanes. The Graf Spee wasn't afraid to leave port. She joined the Bismarck. The epic Battleship confrontation took place in the english channel. The Germans won the mini battle and insured that Normandie would never happen. Spurred on by victory the Germans focused even more heavily on the eastern front... Without airpower the war changed dramatically.

--Avenger

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:25 am

i think we have the makings of a fantasy campaign here with some kind of Pacific Jutland. battle of the Java Sea might still have ocurred though.

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:27 am

O course Taranto never happened so Italy had additional capital ships to challenge Britain. Subs would assume a more important role: maybe fleets of subs.

Huskalator · Post by **Huskalator** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:36 am

Edit:nevermind

Admiral DadMan · Post by **Admiral DadMan** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

Originally posted by Rob Roberson

Good idea, consider it done...

Battlecruisers eh...any idea where I can find the data on the guns they would of carried?

Rob,

Try this site: Warships1

Specifically, these pages:
Lexington Class

Kaga Class

Akagi (Amagi Class)

And of course there's Combined Fleet .com (Nihon Kaigun)

von Murrin · Post by **von Murrin** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:49 am

There are large warships galore after the expiration of the naval treaty. BB's show up in greater numbers and sooner. Non-treaty, next generation vessels go into production as soon as possible.

Without treaty limits, Japan adopts a more standard naval doctrine as they can compete in numbers. They're not as proficient at night combat.

Without airpower, the Brits go down for the count because they have to defend everything.

Cruisers and Battlecruisers rule the Pacific. Vast distance makes a necessity of speed.

Independence class CV's are cruisers still.

Daytime naval combat is bible doctrine, and big guns reign supreme.

Radar is primitive or nonexistent.

Mines are more important.

Rob Roberson · Post by **Rob Roberson** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 8:17 am

drool..

Supervisor · Post by **Supervisor** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 9:23 am

There's a lot of useful information in the attached file. Ships stats are at the end of the file. I got this from The Underdogs site awhile back to supplement my hardcopy version.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 10:36 am

I couldn't recall the name of the sister ship of the Bismarck in my first fanciful posting, so I substituted the Graf Spee. It bothered me that I couldn't remember so I went looking. (The memory is a leaky bucket).

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2Campaig ... rships.htm

--Avenger

Mark Hemns · Post by **Mark Hemns** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 12:50 pm

With all that heavy metal sailing about, you are going to need to massively increase the number of Tankers and Oilers.

TIMJOT · Post by **TIMJOT** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:51 pm

Originally posted by Admiral DadMan

Rob,

Try this site: Warships1

Specifically, these pages:
Lexington Class

Kaga Class

Akagi (Amagi Class)

And of course there's Combined Fleet .com (Nihon Kaigun)

Also, I believe the "Haze of Grey & Uderway" website has specs on the predessor of the NC class BB that was scraped by the Washington Naval Treaty. ( Sorry I dont have the exact URL )

Admiral DadMan · Post by **Admiral DadMan** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 5:21 pm

Originally posted by TIMJOT

Also, I believe the "Haze of Grey & Uderway" website has specs on the predessor of the NC class BB that was scraped by the Washington Naval Treaty. ( Sorry I dont have the exact URL )

Haze Gray & Underway.
Among other things, it has DANFS (The Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships) online. Its strength is in the history of a ship, whereas Warships1 and Combined Fleet.com will also get into the weaponry.

Combined Fleet.com also has a "World's Best Battleship" section, comparing and contrasting 7 Classes of BB

Battleship Sailor

Battleship Sailor

Pearl Harbor

nice one

A few points in no particular order.

thats what im talking about let em flow...