Southwest Front Runs Away?

[Zoetermeer]

I'm 6 turns into my '41-'45 game (playing as Axis). This is my first game so I probably should be a little farther east with AGC than I am, but I'm learning...

Anyway, the AI is doing strange things in the south. Initially I had 1st Panzer Army drive a wedge between the two Soviet armies and I was able to form two big pockets there. After I had sealed the rings, I noticed that I wasn't seeing any Soviet units to my east, even as far as Kiev. It seems as if the AI withdrew all the units of the Southwest Front and moved them elsewhere.

In the two screenshots below you can see the difference between AGC and AGS's respective situations. Soviet units defending the east side of the Dnepr are stacked 4, 5, 6, even 7 deep there, and I had to use three panzer corps and parts of 4th Army just to make 2nd Panzer Group's small penetration near Zhlobin.

Meanwhile, 1st Panzer Group made a dash all the way from Tarnopol to Kiev completely unopposed. Where did the Southwest Front go? This is less than realistic, to say the least.

I know that Soviet strength is supposed to increase dramatically in the center very quickly, but it almost seems like the AI has diverted a huge amount of units from the south to the Smolensk area to shore up the Dnepr defense. Somewhat logical, but now the only thing stopping me in the Ukraine is gasoline.

[Zoetermeer]

Here's AGS situation:

[Flaviusx]

Hmmm. That is a bit much.

I've never seen the AI abandon SW Front area quite to this degree. It doesn't act like this consistently or even very often, but it shouldn't do it at all.

[Dr. Foo]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Hmmm. That is a bit much.

I've never seen the AI abandon SW Front area quite to this degree. It doesn't act like this consistently or even very often, but it shouldn't do it at all.

I wish the AI would do this in my game, it is defending the SW with everything it has.

[ComradeP]

This is more or less exactly what I was seeing, and reported, from my last 1941 challenging game as the Axis. I had trapped most of SW Front on turn 1, and the rest ran away on turn 2 and 3, leaving a minimal presence between Gomel and the Black Sea. Over time, it should correct the situation again, but the AI always has issues with defending the south it seems. This may be caused by recent changes, I don't know, but it's more or less the same issue I noticed a while ago in the 1942 campaign.

I'm wondering if there are 40 divisions in Leningrad and surroundings in your game too, redmarkus.

[von Beanie]

If FOW was turned on, this might not be a bad strategy, since you would be hesitant to advance too quickly for fear of a major counterattack.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

If FOW was turned on, this might not be a bad strategy, since you would be hesitant to advance too quickly for fear of a major counterattack.

Maybe, but I think the AI should at least put up a fight on the Dnepr and Kiev itself. I'm totally cool with a runaway up to that point, but this is going rather too far.

We might need to tweak this.

[karonagames]

@ zoetemeer: Was this on "Normal"? Also how many SU units did you destroy in the first 3-4 turns? This could be related to the AI not getting the 110% morale setting bonus units, so she goes into "self-preservation" mode and puts everything in front of Moscow, but she doesn't have the extra units to put screens out which is what I usually see her do in the south.

Also Zoetemeer could you send me the save game - PM sent.

I definitely think this needs to be bumped up to Joel/Gary.

[PyleDriver]

Hum, in all my testing I never seen that either...Joel, did Gary do last few changes on the AI before release? I sent so many saves on defending the Dnepr in the south, what happened...

[Zoetermeer]

Agreed - it's insane for the Soviets to abandon Kiev and the Dnepr like that. The way things are looking now, I'll eventually be able to wheel 1st Panzer Army north and behind all those forces opposite AGC, and annihilate them (not to mention the fact that now the Ukraine is all mine).

Here's my AGN situation (also heavily engaged):

[Zoetermeer]

Yep, this is on normal.

[sanderz]

Just to say i have pretty much identical situation - though there are a few more units down south and probably more i can't see - but Smolensk/Pskov is jam packed with Soviets.

I did not capture many SOVs either - all in all on t6 they still have less than 1 million casualties (yeah, i suck)

[PyleDriver]

Hum, not even a screen of regiments on your left. If you tried that agianst a human, they would be driving on East Prussia next turn...

[Flaviusx]

Zoetermeer, I expect the AI will correct itself and reinforce the south, and shift units from the rest of the front down there, but your basic impression is correct: it has overreacted to moves elsewhere and given up too much down there.

Over the course of a campaign, this probably evens itself out, I doubt it will let you drive unopposed all the way to the Volga or whatever. Nevertheless, this is a noteworthy issue and we will pass it along.

[karonagames]

I expect the AI will correct itself and reinforce the south, and shift units from the rest of the front down there,

I have run the turn I just received, and GAIA did recover pretty well - cutting off a couple of the over-extended spearheads. I think Gary is treating Smolensk as being as valuable as Moscow, so the strong push through Vitebsk and across the river Dnepr triggered the "carpet" move. I think she need to be taught to live with a thinner carpet.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Hmmm. That is a bit much.

I've never seen the AI abandon SW Front area quite to this degree. It doesn't act like this consistently or even very often, but it shouldn't do it at all.

I nearly fell off my chair laughing at this response. I posted EXACTLY the same observations about the AI in the south over the last two days and Flaviusx and others tried to explain that this is logical Soviet AI behaviour. In a few turns, Stalin will march 0.5 million men south again to meet you outside Kiev. Very historical.

Also, see my brief AAR posted today - the Soviet AI abandons Minsk and Riga without a fight. Grand Campaign AI is broken, IMHO. The German AI won't advance and the Soviet AI just wants to run away in the south and abandons key cities all along the front at random times.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Hum, in all my testing I never seen that either...Joel, did Gary do last few changes on the AI before release? I sent so many saves on defending the Dnepr in the south, what happened...

Most players will want to play the Grand Campaign - it's the main I reason I for one bought the game. Can we somehow get this issue prioritised with 2by3?

[Flaviusx]

Redmarkus, your game was within what I consider to be acceptable parameters. As I said: falling back to Kiev and defending on the Dnepr is kosher. Indeed, it was defending both on the river and just west of it at the end of your game.

This game is a different story and a far more clear cut case.

[Redmarkus5]

Hi. Yes, it was defending both sides at the end (we are talking about my original GC game and not my Kiev scenario game, right?) but first it ran away completely in the South, as I reported, and built the carpet defence in front of Smolensk. Then it marched back.

Anyway - whatever. There is clearly an issue here and we all want to see it corrected - we all just want to have fun playing. What's the likelihood it can be fixed? Can it be a top priority?

[Redmarkus5]

Erik - are you reading this thread?