Fortified Zones - Useless?

[matt.buttsworth]

Hello Everyone,

I have tried fortified zones to help in the defense of Leningrad.
I have found them quite useless. Not only do they not seem to count much to defend a square but they cost be combat points because I cannot put a real infantry or armoured unit in there place in the to be defended square.
I will never use them again.
Has anyone had a simlar experience?

What are they good for?

Matthew Buttsworth

[karonagames]

I think the general consensus amongst the testers is that they are useless, and should only be used in very specific circumstances, but I can't tell you what those circumstances are, because I never use them! As the SU in 1941 there are far better things you can spend the APs on. You will probably get better results by spending the AP to transfer your best infantry general to Leningrad.

[CarnageINC]

Maybe this should be looked at, its a great concept but to me if its fortified zone that mean a lot of preparation went into the defensive positions and should count as a 'hardened target'.  Bunkers, mine fields, wire, tank traps, zeroed in arty, all that stuff.  A lot like what the Soviets did at Kursk.  I believe that is the concept of what their suppose to do, so why not address the issue, I think it would a great addition to the game if it was properly modified to work that way.

[ComradeP]

As the Soviets, I'd never build them and I disband the ones on the map on turn 1 or 2 of a 1941-1945 campaign. As the Axis however, they're not quite useless.

To me, their main use is digging behind the line, and maintaining the fort level in a hex. You don't want to defend a hex with them, you use them to dig in for you. I don't think I'd ever use German ones, but I can see good reasons why I'd want to build some in Finland, Romania and Hungary, which will use the manpower of the country they're build in. They're a cheap way to get, over time, a series of level 5 forts in hexes that you want to fortify. When the enemy comes close, disband them and let combat units occupy the hex. That way, you shouldn't lose manpower or equipment either, as it will be returned to the pool.

[karonagames]

yes, I think the circumstances that Pieter outlines are where you would get best return on your investment in fortified zones. As you can see, every tester has his own theory on where to get the best return on investment on APs.

I can see the point that if you had a line of level 3-4 entrenchments, at the beginning of 1942, they would deteriorate while you advance on Moscow/Stalingrad, you could used the fortified zone units to maintain/improve the line so you have something decent to fall back to in 1943. That is something I might consider investing in.

[Great_Ajax]

I don't think they are useless as many don't use the forward planning to use them properly. If you think you are going to plop these down on or near the front line and expect the Maginot line, they are going to fail. If you are conducting a strategic withdrawal and want to develop a fortification system for your combat units to occupy in 4-6 months, this would be the way to do it. The units themselves are not very powerful but they allow you to dig in and build up entrenchments without having to occupy the hex by a combat unit.

Say the Germans want to start building a line of fortifications such as the Panther Line or even a defensive line along the Dnepr. Using the fortified regions would be the best way to dig the entrenchments far behind your lines. When the time comes, you have a nice long line of fortifications for your units to occupy.

Trey

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I don't think they are useless as many don't use the forward planning to use them properly. If you think you are going to plop these down on or near the front line and expect the Maginot line, they are going to fail. If you are conducting a strategic withdrawal and want to develop a fortification system for your combat units to occupy in 4-6 months, this would be the way to do it. The units themselves are not very powerful but they allow you to dig in and build up entrenchments without having to occupy the hex by a combat unit.

Say the Germans want to start building a line of fortifications such as the Panther Line or even a defensive line along the Dnepr. Using the fortified regions would be the best way to dig the entrenchments far behind your lines. When the time comes, you have a nice long line of fortifications for your units to occupy.

Trey

Exactly!

And you can then also dismiss all those fortified units to restore all the manpower and equipment as well...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Swayin]

Useless with the exception noted above, IMHO; and once they are occupied, perhaps best to be disbanded to allow a infantry unit to occupy the fortifications it has been building over the months in question.

[Arstavidios]

They're not good in the front line as they will die easily. so good for building fall back lines. Possibly good also to protect some important rail segments against partisan attacks which may hurt your supplies in winter.

[Jim D Burns]

They also allow you to break down a security division and only place 2 regiments in a light urban hex to meet the garrison requirement of 8,000 instead of using a full security division (though wait until the rail gets repaired or the three unit stack will prevent rail repairs in the hex). I use 1 regiment and a fortified zone for city hexes, so one security division can cover a light urban hex and a city hex, or three city hexes if mated with fortified zones.

I guess if things got really bad, you could cover all city locations with 3 forts instead of using security troops. That would free up a lot of mobile security forces to hunt down the partisans with. But that costs 8 additional AP per city to create, which brings your cost up to 12 per city. That may be too much unless partisans are really causing havoc.

Jim

[Arstavidios]

I may be wrong but it seems you can only build one fortified zone per hex.
It seems int can be quite useful in the rear.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios

I may be wrong but it seems you can only build one fortified zone per hex.
It seems int can be quite useful in the rear.

Just checked it, you are correct sir. I was unable to produce a second fort even though the AP pop-up occured and allowed me to click on the yes button. So one per hex is the max.

Jim

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I don't think they are useless as many don't use the forward planning to use them properly. If you think you are going to plop these down on or near the front line and expect the Maginot line, they are going to fail. If you are conducting a strategic withdrawal and want to develop a fortification system for your combat units to occupy in 4-6 months, this would be the way to do it. The units themselves are not very powerful but they allow you to dig in and build up entrenchments without having to occupy the hex by a combat unit.

Say the Germans want to start building a line of fortifications such as the Panther Line or even a defensive line along the Dnepr. Using the fortified regions would be the best way to dig the entrenchments far behind your lines. When the time comes, you have a nice long line of fortifications for your units to occupy.

Exactly!

And you can then also dismiss all those fortified units to restore all the manpower and equipment as well...

That's exactly how I use them - if you plan far enough ahead, months or even years, they are quite handy for building fallback lines of defense.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
They also allow you to break down a security division and only place 2 regiments in a light urban hex to meet the garrison requirement of 8,000 instead of using a full security division (though wait until the rail gets repaired or the three unit stack will prevent rail repairs in the hex). I use 1 regiment and a fortified zone for city hexes, so one security division can cover a light urban hex and a city hex, or three city hexes if mated with fortified zones.

I have used them as supplementary garrisons too, when I simply have no extra security troops or regiments to spare. It's better than leaving a city without a garrison. In general, I build a fortified zone in each city/urban area I take to start building defenses, even if I have a security unit there (as they only build up to level 1 fortifications) and that way if I need to defend that city in the future it's already fortified.

Regards,

- Erik

[CarnageINC]

Good advice Erik, I'll have to start setting these up in some cities [;)]

[mmarquo]

And you attach support units to them such artillery and they become atrociously difficult to dislodge...

[krieger]

I have this at Minsk, a light urban hex, thus requiring 8000 troops in it to deny partisan creation (SEC units counting 2x) at least from what I've read and played so far, I made my calculations and it resulted in that I was meeting 84% (I provide them below the image) of the garrison requirement, not counting the fortified zone (FF), while 71% is being listed in the general information and city box. The FF in the hex was in "refit" status so I changed it to "ready" since it had built up in a turn to 100% cause it might had some to do but after passing the turn to check out the Minsk garrison is still showing 71%



not counting the FF unit-------->(1702+1685)x2=6774 ; 6774/8000=.84

counting the FF unit -----------> 6774+1834= +8000/8000, so above 100% and blue coded (Shift+K shows a chromatic code on garrison requirements in eligible hexes, city, light and heavy urban)

It seems all messed up in Minsk while my other fortified zone only garrisons that I've set up for testing purposes at Khisinev (1828- 45%) and Chernovtsy (1279- 31%) are showing correct figures I think. So it may have to do with FF and SEC units working together in garrison duties. Hope someone can put some light into this as is important to avoid partisan creation if posible at least until the rail network is more developed (lets say spring 1942), then it might be even interesting for troop training, I dont really know.

For now probably disbanding the FF and sending more SEC troops but even when I do this the percentage seems to be fairly lower than it should be. Minsk is critical in my supply network atm as op. typhoon is about to begin. Fortunately enough most manpower is damaged (72%) so I think no partisan squads is being created yet from Minsk.

[JAMiAM]

I think that Minsk is bugged and counting as dense urban for garrison purposes. I remember seeing something in one of the patch notes (perhaps still unreleased) regarding Minsk.

[krieger]

v1.01

Yeah it seems that Minsk is being regarded as a heavy urban hex here (/12000) for garrisons. Thanks.

EDIT: corrected with v1.02 [;)] (just updated myself)

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I don't think they are useless as many don't use the forward planning to use them properly. If you think you are going to plop these down on or near the front line and expect the Maginot line, they are going to fail. If you are conducting a strategic withdrawal and want to develop a fortification system for your combat units to occupy in 4-6 months, this would be the way to do it. The units themselves are not very powerful but they allow you to dig in and build up entrenchments without having to occupy the hex by a combat unit.

Say the Germans want to start building a line of fortifications such as the Panther Line or even a defensive line along the Dnepr. Using the fortified regions would be the best way to dig the entrenchments far behind your lines. When the time comes, you have a nice long line of fortifications for your units to occupy.

Trey

I agree with Trey. I use them as both a Soviet and German player. One reason they cost so much for a Soviet player up until Nov 41 is that they were too effective in stopping the Germans. Trey can attest to that fact on how many he encountered when him and I played against each other. There is a time and place for them and when used properly are very effective.

Andy