German vs. AI take two

[Jim D Burns]

Due to the overly high difficulty settings I was playing with in my first German game, I’ve decided to scrap that effort and try again at the normal setting. I simply became too bogged down in the mass of fortified Russians in that game and doubt I ever could have reached Leningrad before winter. Even Smolensk would have been difficult as there were about 5 lines of units to go through, all dug in deep.

So it’s 100/100 on the difficulty slider for everyone, let’s hope I don’t get bogged down by fortifications this time around. Ironically I see this as a very good thing and I’m glad to start over. The AI simply does not need huge cheats as I assumed it would.

What a difference a little experience makes. In my first attempt I just barely made it to 4,000 destroyed Soviet airframes on the opening turn. This time around I exceeded 5,000 (see the numbers lower right corner of screenshot), so I’m very happy with my results in the air war this turn.

What I did differently (last time I did all the attacks manually and changed nothing) was set the airfield attack setting to 70 and escort to 30. I then let the AI handle bombing bases and when it was done, I went around and shift clicked on bases that still had large amounts of airframes left and assigned some more missions using the least used groups.

I also did far better with my opening moves this time than the last. Near Riga I actually managed to cross the Daugava River with two armor divisions. My motorized infantry tried an assault on the city across the river, but it was a recon result and there wasn’t enough movement left with any of my units for another attempt after that.

3rd Panzer Group did pretty good as well, though a stubborn Soviet infantry division northwest of Minsk was responsible for preventing my armor from getting adjacent to Minsk this turn. It held against 3 attacks, twice in its original hex and once in its retreat hex. I was finally able to break it, but after its stubborn resistance my armor lacked the movement to force the hex directly northwest of Minsk and had to stop just short of its goal in getting adjacent to the city.

4th Army was able to break Brest-Litovsk in its first attempt with a single attack made by 4 divisions from the two hexes north of the city. This allowed the remaining infantry to clear a good portion of the defenders east of Brest-Litovsk and thus freed up the 2nd Panzer Group to range freely towards the east. They managed to create a much wider breach of controlled hexes this go around than my first attempt. They also routed quite a few more units southwest of Minsk as well, so I’m very happy with their progress.

Except for the progress of the 2nd Panzer Group units I sent south towards Kovel. I was unable to achieve the same success this game as the last and the diverted units from 2nd Panzer Group are far from sealing off a northern perimeter to a desired pocket around Kovel as they did in the last game.

I’m hoping I can achieve some kind of decent pocket next turn though, since I was able to cut the rail line leading out of Kovel to the east with a division from 1st Panzer Group and the northeast line was cut by a unit from 2nd Panzer Group, so the Soviet units will have to try and slog it on foot through the swamp if they want to escape their fate.

I went ahead and created my regimental line of units from the 17th Army west of Lvov like last game. Unlike last game however, I’m not attacking south. I’ve forgone attacking with most of the rest of the infantry and swung it to the east so it’s in position to assist in a southern drive next turn to try and trap some of the Lvov defenders before they can escape like they did in the first game.

Jim

[Walloc]

Hi Jim,

One thing i found out by experience is that the sea acts as a supply source for the russians. So any forces u "cut" of by going to Riga isnt really cut of.
Doing an double envelope with 4 PzGrp, pincer running up near the coast and the other going N from around Kaunas meeting in the vincinity of Riga. Assuming the ring/pincer is wide enough, it cuts off nearly all of those troops S/SW of Riga. So they isolated for next turn = surrender, instead of just making them all rout and they then evade "over the sea".

Hope it helps,

Rasmus

[hgilmer3]

Looking forward to this one since I just started a GC of my own against the AI, same settings.  I was in about the same situation as you after the 1st turn.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Hi Jim,

One thing i found out by experience is that the sea acts as a supply source for the russians. So any forces u "cut" of by going to Riga isnt really cut of.
Doing an double envelope with 4 PzGrp, pincer running up near the coast and the other going N from around Kaunas meeting in the vincinity of Riga. Assuming the ring/pincer is wide enough, it cuts off nearly all of those troops S/SW of Riga. So they isolated for next turn = surrender, instead of just making them all rout and they then evade "over the sea".

Hope it helps,

Rasmus

Sage advice, thanks for that. I hadn't even thought about the ports in those dot costal towns lol. Though I'm wondering if sending Panzer units up the coast is worth it. How many divisions do they end up trapping in your moves?

Jim

[Walloc]

Hi Jim,

I purposely dont attack any units other than those in the way on turn 1. To keep them in place for surrounding and then attacking on turn 2. Bagging them as surrenders as opposed "just to" rout them.
SW of Riga there are around 4-5 Tank divs and around 10 inf/mot divs plus a few NKVD regs.

The pincer i do along the coast doesnt attacking any of the coastal cities per say. Punch the hole with the inf. Encircle with Mot/PZ then move inf to ZOC as much as possibly to avoid them breaking out. Espcially towards the coast. Since thats the whole point of the manuver.

Question is getting the pincer "wide enough" using the ZoC of the moving Pz/mot units converting as many hexes as possible. Making the pincer as wide as possible. Doing that correct is the trick.
Also dont go adject to any routed units as that just force a new rout out of the pocket. Less u hafta.

In all, my record for turn 2 is 100+ unit surrendring, but i do a few more encircles on the south front on turn 1 to set up that turn 2.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus

[Jim D Burns]

Hmm, I hadn’t spent as much thought on forcing surrenders as perhaps I should. I concerned myself with creating as large and as deep an initial move as possible. I’ll look into it next time I start a game, though 100 units sounds almost impossible. I’ve trapped about 50 or so it looks like, where do you find another 50 to encircle on turn 1? How about doing an AAR to demo the opening, would love to see it?

Jim

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Hmm, I hadn’t spent as much thought on forcing surrenders as perhaps I should. I concerned myself with creating as large and as deep an initial move as possible. I’ll look into it next time I start a game, though 100 units sounds almost impossible. I’ve trapped about 50 or so it looks like, where do you find another 50 to encircle on turn 1? How about doing an AAR to demo the opening, would love to see it?

Jim

If u move the PzGrp in the AGS correctly but it has to be done in the absolutly correct order of moving units. U can reach the Rumenian border cutting of much of what is in between Lvov and the rumenian border.
There is absolutly no movement points to spare so u hafta move the right units in the exact correct order for it to work.
ill see if i cant do a "AAR" of my first turn soon.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Jim D Burns]

Turn 2

After the discussion above with Walloc, I took a look at the Latvian Coast this turn and decided to try some single division hasty attacks to try and clear the ports without going after the rest of the units west of Riga.

Infantry from XXVI Corps successfully expelled the Soviets from both port towns of Liepaja and Ventspils. At Liepaja the Soviet infantry division defending the town retreated north instead of routing, this will allow me to isolate him with the rest of the units left in Latvian territory. At Ventspils my infantry didn’t quite have enough movement points left to occupy the port town hex, so Russia has a chance to reopen supply lines in its turn.

Northeast of Riga my armor raced about chasing down routed units and HQs forcing them to rebase. This is about as far as I’ll go with the armor until the infantry catches up.

Near Minsk the 3rd and 2nd Panzer Groups crushed all remaining resistance in the area and encircled 6 divisions and an airbase on the north edge of the Pripyat Marshes. These two Groups also raced about and cleared out all the broken units and HQ/Airbases in the area. A few divisions advanced as far east as the Berezina River, I didn’t want to go further until next turn after the small pocket is cleared and the rest of the armor can head east.

1st Panzer Group found itself doing double duty in the south this turn, as I sent the armor even further north into the marshes to cut off the units in Kovel.

After making that move I started my drive south towards Tarnopol and only then realized I needed all my Panzers in the south. Had I to do it over again I’d abandon the process of surrounding Kovel and head south with all my armor instead.

But I don’t do do-overs, so I stuck with my moves even though I feel it was a strategic mistake. Had I not gotten so engrossed in my move I’d have realized this earlier and not made the boneheaded move. I need to stop and come up for air once in a while.

Jim

[Redmarkus5]

Nice AAR as always, Jim.

When I was deployed in Minsk to deploy systems, I visited the Pripyat and there's no way the game should allow such extensive armoured movement through there, especially in 1941. IMHO. The Pripyat isn't your everyday marsh - it's a vast area of flooded terrain and woods, with very few roads, as I am sure you know.

The Soviets attacked through the Pripyat in 1944 during Bagration, as I recall, but only with a huge engineering effort and extensive use of Log Roads.

[Jim D Burns]

Russia 2

It looks like 5 or 6 Russian divisions that were surrounded by my units spontaneously surrendered during Russia’s turn execution. At first I thought they were previously routed divisions, but then I saw that the 27th Tank Division, the one at the northern tip of the pocket south of Minsk had surrendered, so I guess it’s simply a failed die roll check.

Though I do find it strange that some divisions surrendered on the same turn I surrounded them. Namely the 27th Tank Division and the 143rd Rifle Division. Both were just surrounded this turn in the pocket south of Minsk.

Russia also launched five attacks in the south against my weak southern drive. All five attacks were against single defending regiments. Even though I was forced to retreat twice, Russia took far more losses than I did in all the attacks, ranging anywhere between 5-1 and 30-1 in men lost. Russia also lost almost 500 AFV’s in the fighting.

I was lucky however, as several of the attacks could have isolated my two most southern motorized regiments, but the 1/16th Motorized Regiment defending hex 55, 84 managed to hold on and kept the units from being isolated.

Jim

[Avenger]

That was pretty impressive in my opinion. You almost made it to Minsk on the first turn, plus you completed a very large encirclement. I always make the Romanian border on the second turn. I had no idea that you could reach it on the first turn. Nice work! Keep this one going!

[PyleDriver]

Well wait until next turn when he needs to get those PzD's out of the marsh. You'll find it cost him alot in the south, basicly it will cost him two weeks of time...And time is so short...

[Jim D Burns]

Turn 3

East of Riga, AGN panzers cleared out most of the Soviet units west of the Sinyaya River in anticipation of the infantry’s arrival in the area over the next couple of turns.

In the center, 3rd Panzer Group started a drive towards Vitebsk and ran into a strong defensive line 4 hexes southwest of the city. The group lacked sufficient movement points to attack the line this turn, so will hit it next turn.

2nd Panzer Group began a drive towards Mogilev and Gomel. Its panzers were able to clear most of the area west of the Dnepr River and took an undefended Mogilev.

As mentioned by PyleDriver above, 1st Panzer Group had a heck of a time getting south out of the swamp, but enough units were able to push into Rovno and took yet another undefended city there. The motorized infantry elements of the group that had driven south turned east and encircled some soviet armor in the area.

I did send the 9th Panzer Division from the 1st Panzer Group south in order to cut the last remaining rail line leading into Lvov that the infantry from 17th Army lacked the movement to get to. This traps about 17 divisions plus other elements in the Lvov pocket.

With a single spaced ZOC line formed to the division, this is a move I would have made even against a human opponent, though I realize there are risks of the division getting encircled. Enough infantry from 17th army is close enough that I’m confident I can relieve the unit if that occurs.

With 4 tank divisions trapped in the small pockets east of Lvov and at least 2 and possibly 3 inside the Lvov pocket, this will see the destruction of the majority of the soviet armor strength in the south. Combine that with the 12 Tank divisions I’ve already destroyed, a huge amount of offensive power will be gone from the Soviet arsenal come the Blizzards.

In the south the Rumanians were all active this turn. I checked the event log and saw no notification of it, so it’s very possible they got released last turn and I missed it. I’ve begun an effort to isolate the Russian border defenders, so not a lot of attacks were made, but the Rumanians are so slow I’m wondering if I should have just hammered the defenders instead.

Jim

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Turn 3

In the south the Rumanians were all active this turn. I checked the event log and saw no notification of it, so it’s very possible they got released last turn and I missed it. I’ve begun an effort to isolate the Russian border defenders, so not a lot of attacks were made, but the Rumanians are so slow I’m wondering if I should have just hammered the defenders instead.

Jim

Rumenians and german forces there becomes unfrozen at turn 2.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Jim D Burns]

Turn 4

Unlike my last game, I’ve set myself more modest goals this time. Instead of trying to cross the Sinyaya River and slog through the marshes on the east bank before turning north, 4th Panzer Group will cross the Velikaya River near the small town of Ostrov (nice easy clear terrain here) and then try and surround the defenders at Pskov. So they spent this turn clearing the west bank of the river for next turn’s assault.

3rd Panzer Group made a nice deep penetration northeast towards Vitebsk, and at first I thought they’d be able to seal a nice pocket of 4 or 5 hexes west of the city. But Soviet defense stiffened and after several failed assaults against the 55th and 57th Tank divisions the drive northeast petered out and I was unable to close the pocket.

2nd Panzer Group spent the turn clearing the west bank of the Dnepr northwest of Gomel to clear the way for 4th Army’s infantry which will begin arriving next turn and will begin its efforts to cross the Dnepr as soon as they can.

1st Panzer Group headed east from Rovno and ran into a double line of defenders west of Zhitomir. At first I thought they’d be able to break through and force the large group of airfields behind the line to rebase, but as the screenshot shows (small triangles in top left corner of counters is set to fuel status indicators in this shot), my panzers all ran out of fuel and were unable to continue their assault.

At Lvov there was still a non broken group of hex control leading into the pocket at the start of the turn, so I sealed off the pocket without making any attacks this turn. This is the price I pay for sending my Panzers deeper into the marshes on turn two. A turn or two lost for the 17th Army’s infantry. But in the south time isn’t as critical as in the north and center, so I think I’m still relatively on schedule down south.

All the defenders except a couple managed to get out of the Rumanian ZOCs and fled east, so lesson learned. In the future I’ll simply attack and try and break/shatter as many units as I can. The Rumanians are simply too slow to surround anything.

Hopefully I’ll manage to create a large pocket of units at Odessa and kill off some of the units that escaped.

As this turns screenshot shows, the AI has been changed since my first game. Instead of two large blobs of units at Pskov and Vitebsk/Mogilev, there is now also a double line of defenders running south from the area west of Zhitomir almost all the way to Odessa.

The Soviets get a lot of units every turn for the next few turns, so I expect these defense lines to thicken each turn. I’ll have to push hard with my panzers and try and breach these lines before they get too deep and dug in. I’ve learned my lesson about fortifications, I’m not going to take even one turns pause/rest if I can help it.

Jim

[randallw]

Building fortified zones in captured cities to decrease garrison requirements of regular troop units?  Saw that was discussed on the forum recently.  Let us know how it works. [:)]

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: randallw

Building fortified zones in captured cities to decrease garrison requirements of regular troop units?  Saw that was discussed on the forum recently.  Let us know how it works. [:)]

It works great. A city requires 4,000 troops for garrison, so a single Security regiment of 1,600+ men doubles due to being a security unit, so it equals 3,200+. Add to that the 1,700+ men in a fortified zone and you meet the required 4,000 with room to spare.

A light urban hex can be garrisoned with 2 regiments and a fort, so in the end you gain quite a few extra regiments of security troops to use in cities before you have to begin to rely on regular combat units if you place a fortified zone in every city. In addition the forts allow you to dig in beyond level 1 entrenchments which security troops are limited to.

In the south I’ll use almost no German security units as soon as the minor country brigade sized units can reach the garrison cities. They’ll replace the security units currently in those cities and I’ll send them all north. The minor brigades are large enough to meet even light urban garrison requirements on their own, but I’ll keep the fortified zones on map in case the mobile units need to leave their garrison cities for a short time to chase down partisans.

Jim

[Avenger]

Thanks for the tip. I will have to try that. I have only been leaving a single security unit in the conquered cities, and never even checked for partisans.

[hgilmer3]

I bought a 27 inch monitor to view your maps!  (width wise.  Up and down still takes scrolling, but at least I don't have to scroll on two ranges).  I love the way you do your maps, though.  You can see the whole picture.

[Jim D Burns]

delete double post.