Sov Airforce out of control?

[abulbulian]

I've been playing a game vs AI and it's into June 1942. So far I've destroyed 14k planes and lost 3k (1/3 from flak).

So now that is June 42 Sov AF almost 15k strong to my 4k. Umm, it's only 42 and I've had a better start than historical, yet the air force numbers are out of whack with anything historical.

I know the answer, but does somebody want to tell me when the Sov started having anything close to parity with the Luftwaffe in terms of planes/capability. Maybe a play tester would like to take a shot at this one? Sure I know that German pilots have more experience, but an almost 4:1 ratio in planes is not right.

Part of the problem is that any sort of AF attack by axis after turn #1 of any game just sucks. Why does is it so horrible to attack Sov airfeild after t1? Is it that they are so aware after 1 week (4 days campaign) and have all this new flak or super flak? COME ON. This is very frustrating that the is almost no POINT to and air field attack after turn one. Maybe just disable the button after t1.

Anyways, I find that the game has some major issue with Sov planes and capability of their AF.

So what can I expect in 43??? Like 30k Sov planes to my 3k? [:-]

Oh BTW found some #'s will validate in some other sources too:

Sov available aircraft in

June 42: 2100
Dec 42: 3800
June 43: 5600
Dec 43: 8800
June 44: 15000
Dec 44: 16000

PS: on turn one I destroyed about 5k planes on ground.

[ComradeP]

The main problem is that air base bombing is essentially pointless after turn 1 and that there are no air superiority missions, so you'll mostly be shooting down enemy aircraft during battles. The Soviets face the same problem, though, so the Luftwaffe will also be stronger than it should be most of the time. It's out of whack for both sides.

Until shortly before release, there was a system in place that attracted a lot of planes to intercept recon missions or bomb air base missions, which lead to thousands of Soviet losses mostly. All of that got axed and as it now turns out it might've been nerfed a bit too severely as currently the damage you can do to the opponent's air force outside a battle is pretty small.

[Speedysteve]

Don't get me started on this [;)]

[abulbulian]

ok, well I think it's insane to have a historic game with the #'s so out of whack. This is a fantasy game to have Sov air force with 15k planes in 1942, when I've destroyed 14k already.

How could the #'s be so wrong? Like I said, done much better than historic and it should follow #'s should be around historic or even better in my favor?


15K Sov aircraft in June 42 and 14K serviceable. This seems unacceptable for game that is not fantasy but suppose to be somewhat historic.

[ComradeP]

It's being worked on, none of the testers are happy with it either I think. The previous situation was bad due to way too high losses. This is bad due to minimal losses and the air war becoming a non-issue outside of battles.

[abulbulian]

LOL

How can I even think about playing PBEM as axis with these kind of issues in the game? Don't even know how any tester could have beaten a competent Sov opponent. But, maybe I'm missing something?

[Jim D Burns]

I don’t think the numbers you are seeing are really that far off from history.

According to John Ellis’ book WWII a Statistical Survey, during 1941 the USSR produced 15,735 military aircraft. In 1942 they produced 25,436 military aircraft. (Table 92 page 278)

So in 1941 they averaged 1,311 airframes produced per month. In 1942 that production had increased to an average of 2,119 airframes per month.

In 39 and 40, the USSR produced 10,000+ airframes for each of those two years, so they easily had 25,000+ airframes on hand by the middle of 1941 if you just look at production for 39-41 and ignore any previous years produced airframes.

Jim

[abulbulian]

OMG are you kidding me? Yeah, production and NOT serviceable aircraft for use. Not trainer planes. Also, there was aircraft station in the far east facing Japan too for a while. A bunch did move to face axis, but some still remained in far east.


Jim D, go find me some stat on combat planes on east front. Don't throw out some production #'s that don't mean jack unless they used in some sort of combat mission that the game has.


I believe the numbers I posted are very close to accurate.

The numbers I'm see are wrong and VERY wrong.

[Redmarkus5]

Here's my OOB (Soviet human vs. AI) for 02 July '43. Almost exactly the same numbers as those you have quoted, which suggests that, if the numbers really are 'out of whack', this is not an 'AI' issue as such, but more of a replacement pool and production issue. I would guess that this makes it easier to find a short term fix? Lowering some values in a table somewhere?

[abulbulian]

redmarkus4, was that from a 41 campaign? If not, were not talking apples to apples.

Yes, that is what I'm try to state. There's a production issue for Sov aircraft.

[Redmarkus5]

This is from my 41-45 grand campaign, which I assumed was the one being talked about here...?

[Helpless]

15K Sov aircraft in June 42 and 14K serviceable. This seems unacceptable for game that is not fantasy but suppose to be somewhat historic.

Huh...

Combat planes in Red Army
June-22-1941 20K
1-Jan-1941 12K
1-Jan-1943 21.9K
1-Jan-1944 32.5K
1-Jan-1945 43.4K
9-May-1945 47.3K

Source table 185 im "Г.Ф.Кривошеев (под редакцией). Россия и СССР в войнах XX века: Потери вооруженных сил"
http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri.txt

[Smirfy]

I dont want to be critical but the airwar is a 24/7 operation the way it is set up in game does not account for that. You guys seriously went too small for air units it should be handled at a pretty high level like Army group/front. I cant see this system working on a western Europe game as it is unmanagable as it stands now.

[ComradeP]

I don't think there's a big issue with production, the problem is that you can't shoot planes down in the historical numbers in many cases. The production by itself isn't the problem in my opinion.

[Jim D Burns]

Calm down, don’t fly of the handle.

On hand airframes in units and production are two different issues and should be handled by the game engine as such. The numbers you posted were probably for active military front line squadrons, so in game terms that meant they are active squadrons assigned to airbases or in the national reserve.

But production should be looked at as a different issue. That is the depth of your airforce (the reserve you can draw from) and it should not be limited to front line combat unit numbers. Each county produced a set number of airframes, those airframes belong in the production cycle somewhere.

I’m not saying they belong on map, but the different countries should be able to rebuild their front line units from an historically accurate production pool. What the USSR probably needs is an off map zone similar to the national reserve where squadrons equal to x have to be based. X being the historical number of squadrons in the east at the given game date.

Then limit the number of squadrons that can be in play to the historical front line numbers you posted, and you have an accurate representation of the airforce.

Jim

[jimkehn]

Abulbulian, you have destroyed almost 5:1 Soviet aircraft to your Aircraft. Now they only outnumber you 4:1. You still have the advantage. LOL But seriously, as I am playing the Russian against a German AI, I see the problem from a different perspective. Yes I have tons more aircraft but when the Germans bomb my airfields they send 80 bombers and wipe out 10-15 of My bombers. I sent 300 IL2's once to an airfield and maybe killed 5 German aircraft except the fighters that were shot down. But I outnumbered the German Interceptors by about 5 to one and still lost more fighters than HE did. Yes I agree it seems the production may be out of whack. But try playing the Soviets and outnumber German fighters by 5:1 and lose three times as many fighters as the Germans and then come back and tell me what u think. I am not playing the GC but Case Blau so we are not completely on the same page but I would say both sides are using roughly half what they WOULD be using in the GC. Anyway i agree with your premise that maybe the air production is too strong but I also agree with Pieter that the airbase missions and intercepting recon missions is pointless. AS the Russian....the unescorted German recon planes shoot down about 3 fighters for every recon my fighters shoot down. LOL. Well I hope it is all brought into balance and we will have a great game.

[abulbulian]

Helpless, sorry to say your source is wrong and doesn't represent what was available to the Soviets in the theater this game represents . Not your fault, it happens. Lots of bad #'s out there. Much if the information was kept secret up until recently. Hope you not one of those people that believe the Soviets only lost about 500k in battle of Stalingrad.



I'll get the information to you from a David Glantz source.

Also, please KEEP in mind if your going to post about the #'s they have to reflect the types of aircraft that the game represents and the #'s of aircraft in THAT THEATER. Please....

[Helpless]

I'll get the information to you from a David Glantz source.

And Glantz is using Krivoseev.. [;)]

[abulbulian]

The idea of this post was to try and make the game better and more historic. Not to throw stones at it or say it wasn't a great game. This game is my dream of a WW2 eastern front scenario. Just want to see it be all it can be.

[:)]

[jimkehn]

Abulbulian on that we can all agree. 8^)