Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea!

[DuckofTindalos]

Have any Axis players ever tried bypassing the Crimea in the 1941-45 campaign? The exits from the peninsula are so narrow that they can be held with relatively few troops, and the main front needs every single soldier it can get.

Just wondering. In my current game, it's too late in the year to withdraw 11th Army from the Crimea (I thought of it too late), but the whole front is desperately short of reserves...

[ComradeP]

I guess you could try not to take it, especially given how easy it is for the Soviets to defend. They can create some good stacks in the entry hexes before you can get there. You'll miss out on some resources in Kerch and you might face an amphibious landing, but otherwise there's little point in-game to take it if the Soviets want to keep it. Just like the Soviets can block you from coming in, you can fairly easily block them from coming out.

[bwheatley]

You could leave it empty but as i just found out you can put a lot of bombers there and still reach polesti.
That can be a pita to defend every turn. Easier just to clear out the crimea?

[ComradeP]

It's currently mostly a problem due to strategic bombing being broken. You should be able to agree to a no strategic bombing houserule with your opponent until it has been fixed, especially as the Axis can quickly cripple a large part of the Soviet production capabilities fairly easily currently.

[DuckofTindalos]

I'm not necessarily proposing leaving it aside permanently, just for the first campaign season (and winter).

[bwheatley]

Oh it's broken....jesus well there goes that reason to hold the crimea.

[bwheatley]

Whats broken with strategic air comrade? Not enough intercepts or something? or too much damage?

[Klydon]

Yeah, I have been considering screening off the Crimea as well. Figure its going to take an army to take it at least and some time. After that, the garrison requirements are not light either if you are trying to watch for amphibious invasions. I also thought about the Russian air as well trying to bomb the crap out of the German oil in response to such a strategy. This well may come down to how the air war works out. Overall, I think there is a lot to recommend in skipping it. 

[bwheatley]

It's very frustrating that they released the game knowing it's broken. Who'd want to do any strategic air stuff?? Nobody let's just leave it busted. Yes i'm only venting yes the game is amazing. But i paid my almost $100 bucks and would gladly do it again but nobody should deny that it is frustrating. At least compared to paradox the game came out 95% functional and manual accurate.

[ComradeP]

Strategic bombing wasn't really tested after the latest air changes, we only stumbled into how broken it was recently when debating whether factories should indeed automatically "repair" damage above 50 when moved by rail in their entirety.

First the air war was broken due to too many losses, now it's broken because there are hardly any. Keep in mind that the air model has been set in stone for a long time and the focus was on other parts of the game. People like Pavel were not happy with it, but little could be done pre-release due to it being set in stone early on. It will get better over time, although I agree that it's frustrating in a large number of ways.

As to how strategic bombing is broken: CAP doesn't really seem to do much of anything currently, neither does AA fire and the damage to factories is way too high. In 1941, bombing Ploesti has only a small effect on the Axis fuel situation, by the way, that was tested, but the effects will probably increase over time and as fuel becomes more of a problem for the Axis.

[Q-Ball]

I didn't think about the Strategic Bombing aspect; that would make it more of a must-take.

Waiting until 1942 doesn't seem like a great idea either, because a couple Rifle Corps dug-in behind lvl 4 forts are just about impossible to beat back, leaving the Soviets permanently there.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Strategic bombing wasn't really tested after the latest air changes, we only stumbled into how broken it was recently when debating whether factories should indeed automatically "repair" damage above 50 when moved by rail in their entirety.

First the air war was broken due to too many losses, now it's broken because there are hardly any. Keep in mind that the air model has been set in stone for a long time and the focus was on other parts of the game. People like Pavel were not happy with it, but little could be done pre-release due to it being set in stone early on. It will get better over time, although I agree that it's frustrating in a large number of ways.

As to how strategic bombing is broken: CAP doesn't really seem to do much of anything currently, neither does AA fire and the damage to factories is way too high. In 1941, bombing Ploesti has only a small effect on the Axis fuel situation, by the way, that was tested, but the effects will probably increase over time and as fuel becomes more of a problem for the Axis.

Yea i'll play through it i have faith 2by3 will make it right. They always do.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I didn't think about the Strategic Bombing aspect; that would make it more of a must-take.

Waiting until 1942 doesn't seem like a great idea either, because a couple Rifle Corps dug-in behind lvl 4 forts are just about impossible to beat back, leaving the Soviets permanently there.

So? If the Axis counterair campaign is effective, the Soviet air force won't have much to fly strategic bombing with, and if my panzers are busy achieving operational freedom in his rear areas, I'll take a turn or two of (non-broken[;)]) strategic bombing on Ploesti and environs.

[ComradeP]

Not to mention that the level bombers they base in the Crimea won't be supplying partisans. With more functional air to air combat/interceptions and air base bombings, I don't think the Soviets will be staging their own strategic bombing offensive from the Crimea.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

It's very frustrating that they released the game knowing it's broken. Who'd want to do any strategic air stuff?? Nobody let's just leave it busted. Yes i'm only venting yes the game is amazing. But i paid my almost $100 bucks and would gladly do it again but nobody should deny that it is frustrating. At least compared to paradox the game came out 95% functional and manual accurate.

I respect your right to vent [:D], but that simply is not true. If you checked the previous threads you will find that that particular bug was only detected and confirmed a couple of weeks ago.

Back when I was still working for a living, there were a couple of rules-of-thumb for testing really massive data processing systems (massive then meant about the size of WitP now, I'm a fossil [:)])
1) the first hour of live data will exhibit more bugs than were found in the previous year of testing (a matter of limited test cases)
2) the last detected bug will be logged one hour before the system is scrapped and replaced

[Smirfy]

As a side note the reason Hitler gave Guderian for turning him south to Kiev in 41 was the air threat from the Crimea to Polesti describing it as "That Soviet aircraft carrier for attacking the roumanian oilfields" (Panzer Leader page 200) so the Hitler took the threat from the Crimea quite seriously. I guess he was worried that there was every likely hood the Russians would invite Bomber Command to base there also.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

It's very frustrating that they released the game knowing it's broken. Who'd want to do any strategic air stuff?? Nobody let's just leave it busted. Yes i'm only venting yes the game is amazing. But i paid my almost $100 bucks and would gladly do it again but nobody should deny that it is frustrating. At least compared to paradox the game came out 95% functional and manual accurate.

I respect your right to vent [:D], but that simply is not true. If you checked the previous threads you will find that that particular bug was only detected and confirmed a couple of weeks ago.

Back when I was still working for a living, there were a couple of rules-of-thumb for testing really massive data processing systems (massive then meant about the size of WitP now, I'm a fossil [:)])
1) the first hour of live data will exhibit more bugs than were found in the previous year of testing (a matter of limited test cases)
2) the last detected bug will be logged one hour before the system is scrapped and replaced

And let's ram a stake through that one immediately, since outright lies like that have an evil way of becoming true on Internet fora: this game was NOT released containing a knowingly broken strategic air model.

[Klydon]

The Soviets basically have 4 planes that can make the trip. PE-8, IL-4, TB-3, and DB-3B.

Considering that TB-3's are no longer in production and are basically used for transport, it would be nuts to try to use them for bombing there. There are no operational groups of PE-8's to start the game with and with a production value of 1, there are never going to be very many. DB-3B's are obsolete and not in production. IL-4's are the best aircraft the Soviets could mount an offensive with and they have fair production, but considering the range of other aircraft available to the Soviets, they would be wise to conserve as many of these aircraft as possible in the early going because they are going to be needed later.

IF the air system is working correctly, then I would think a couple of units of ME-109's would quickly wear out any desire of the Russians to bomb in Rumania AND also if air field bombing would somewhat work as well, I would see the Luftwaffe launching bomber raids against any airbases in the Crimea trying to launch attacks on Rumania.

Basically, it would tie up some Luftwaffe assets in compensation for conserving troops elsewhere. It is something the Axis must weigh the pro's and con's of in a grand campaign game.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

It's very frustrating that they released the game knowing it's broken. Who'd want to do any strategic air stuff?? Nobody let's just leave it busted. Yes i'm only venting yes the game is amazing. But i paid my almost $100 bucks and would gladly do it again but nobody should deny that it is frustrating. At least compared to paradox the game came out 95% functional and manual accurate.

I respect your right to vent [:D], but that simply is not true. If you checked the previous threads you will find that that particular bug was only detected and confirmed a couple of weeks ago.

Back when I was still working for a living, there were a couple of rules-of-thumb for testing really massive data processing systems (massive then meant about the size of WitP now, I'm a fossil [:)])
1) the first hour of live data will exhibit more bugs than were found in the previous year of testing (a matter of limited test cases)
2) the last detected bug will be logged one hour before the system is scrapped and replaced

What is simply not true? I know they knew air was busted before ever releasing the game. Nothing not true about that. Perhaps you misunderstood what i was saying. Being a programmer i understand the nature of it. I understand bugs i understand qa testing. I understand it happens. But the point remains it is still frustrating even knowing exactly how it all works.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

It's very frustrating that they released the game knowing it's broken. Who'd want to do any strategic air stuff?? Nobody let's just leave it busted. Yes i'm only venting yes the game is amazing. But i paid my almost $100 bucks and would gladly do it again but nobody should deny that it is frustrating. At least compared to paradox the game came out 95% functional and manual accurate.

I respect your right to vent [:D], but that simply is not true. If you checked the previous threads you will find that that particular bug was only detected and confirmed a couple of weeks ago.

Back when I was still working for a living, there were a couple of rules-of-thumb for testing really massive data processing systems (massive then meant about the size of WitP now, I'm a fossil [:)])
1) the first hour of live data will exhibit more bugs than were found in the previous year of testing (a matter of limited test cases)
2) the last detected bug will be logged one hour before the system is scrapped and replaced

And let's ram a stake through that one immediately, since outright lies like that have an evil way of becoming true on Internet fora: this game was NOT released containing a knowingly broken strategic air model.

The game was most certainly released knowing air was not working right. To paraphrase a tester: The air system was finished years ago and since then it's mostly been focused on ground. We know there are issues with it. read threads by the testers. But that said it's just the nature of the beast. And it's still a great game. And venting about it helps get through it. Especially knowing they will