Infantry Exhaustion "Perfect" :)

[Marshal Villars]

I just asked my 91 year old German grandfather about one of his marches while in the German army...

This story comes from the occupation of Austria...so there was "obviously" no combat.

-He carried 40 kg of gear, weapons, and ammunition.
-He started in Mittenwald and ended in Innsbruck.
-They marched in battalion strength.
-They covered 34 kilometers.
-They marched from 5 am until 8 pm, averaging 2.26 kilometers per hour.
-The date was probably March 12, 1938--so I am not sure what the weather was like on this day. I should ask.
-They had a few breaks.
-It was over real roads.
-At the end of the day, they were exhausted and had serious blisters on their feet, but claims they could have done more on the next day. Maybe not as much more. But more.
-At the time he was 20 years old and in good shape.

These are what real German soldiers were capable of. Of course, being off road is more difficult. And if the units are not elite or are older, less can be expected. But still, 34 km in one day, with thinking you were going to have to repeat on the following day? And most importantly, unlike in some of the situations in the game, their lives were not at stake, which could have certainly spurred them on even further and beyond what is normally humanly possible on a leisurely "annexation stroll into friendly territory". I think this should be taken into consideration in BFTB. I think it would be an interesting test in BFTB to march an infantry battalion as far as possible over good roads from 5 am to 8 pm at normal speeds and taking occasional breaks -- as forced by the "Rest: Minimum" setting and then the "Rest:None" setting -- and see how far they get.

When done telling the story he laughed and said, "We weren't like the Americans who would have done this in two or three days." (probably propaganda still having its effect...or just a friendly joke)

What saved his life to tell about this story, was the fact that he was wounded so badly one month into Operation Barbarossa during the drive on Leningrad, that he lost the use of his arm and has been disabled ever since. Otherwise, he would have had slim chances of survival in the unit he was in, which, just months later was wiped out in the Demyansk pocket, was then rebuilt and assigned to every major operation on the eastern front it seems and at the end of the war was handed over to the Soviets.

[Pergite!]

A nice walk indeed [:)]

43km per day in three days is the maximum you can cram out of a US infantry soldier according to their current field manuals on the subject. That is roughly 130km in three days, followed by nothing but rest and medical care I would guess.


I can recommend the Vierdaagse march around Nijmegen. You cover 160km over a period of four days, which sounds more difficult than it really is. The goal is to keep fit enough to be able to party at night.

[johndoesecond]

ORIGINAL: Marshal Villars
I think it would be an interesting test in BFTB to march an infantry battalion as far as possible over good roads from 5 am to 8 pm at normal speeds and taking occasional breaks -- as forced by the "Rest: Minimum" setting and then the "Rest:None" setting -- and see how far they get.

Indeed, do the test yourself.

I picked a reasonably rested and fairly fit German company (2.600 Pion in "Race for Bastogne"): it covered more than 30km from 6.30 until about 16.00, walking no stop, with no rest, regular roads, -2C° and mud. After that, its fatigue was at 74%.

Less rested and less trained units did somewhat worse, but not too much, some 20km (with few harsh wakeups they'd be able to cover 30km however).

So, we're not at all far away from your numbers, quite contrary!

As I said elsewhere, being fired at makes ALL the difference; and it's not just fatigue that stops you, but being halted and delayed by close fire encounters). And that's how it's suppose to be.

I must admit, my vote is to reduce the rates of fatigue in the game, if the topic is even up for debate.

I am casting no vote in favour or against: I want reality checks. Just of the kind you were suggesting: getting historical record, and then compare it with what happens in the game engine.

From what you were proposing here, plain good walking BftB seems to be calibrated reasonably well.

And remember, the Battle of the Bulge was fought in terrible weather and terrain condition. Before tweaking the engine, we really should see how it behaves in other circumstances.


At the end, comparing historical record with the behaviour of the engine should be the ultimate yardstick! (so bring 'em on!)

[Marshal Villars]

I did just do the test myself.

It works. In fact, I think they hit almost exactly 35 or so km by 8 pm over friendly roads in the rear of their army. No change needed. At all.

I am impressed. Once again, the BEST operational simulation on the market. PERIOD.

I am guessing what is slowing my advances is interdiction (artillery, mortars, airstrikes, etc.). Getting better with practice.

Thanks for your help and input johndoesecond.

[johndoesecond]

ORIGINAL: Marshal Villars
I am guessing what is slowing my advances is interdiction (artillery, mortars, airstrikes, etc.). Getting better with practice.

Exactly! If anything, that is maybe the sole thing that could be double checked.

But as I said elsewhere, without serious historical research, it's hard not to underestimate how horrible and traumatic it must be to be in the middle of the fight or under a barrage fire.

ORIGINAL: Marshal Villars
Thanks for your help and input johndoesecond.

You're welcome.

[Marshal Villars]

So you're saying interdiction may be "overly powered"?

I guess we will never know that. Impossible to test. And anecdotal information does little good.

[johndoesecond]

ORIGINAL: Marshal Villars

So you're saying interdiction may be "overly powered"?

or "overy weak", I don't know.

ORIGINAL: Marshal Villars

I guess we will never know that. Impossible to test.

Hm, I'm not sure about that. There is serious military and historical research, and statistical analysis can be performed to at least narrow down the range of variation and the probability distribution of the behaviour of troops under a different circumstances in the WW2, and there are serious behavioural models out there as well.


But I'm sure Pather Games did a lot of research after so many years and the third interation of this engine, so things shouldn't be too far from how they really were, considering the degree and scale of abstraction in this simulation model.

(It's magic, isn't it?)

[Arjuna]

I'm not going to look at fatigue till after I have resolved the formation lockup movement issue. I have fixed this for all but four cases. I'm working my way through these. Once I have the movement working right, I will then review the fatigue issue.

[Marshal Villars]

I don't think it needs to be reviewed. I think it may be close to perfect.

There is definitely more important stuff to do.