unhappiness - at war with race of colony

[Kayoz]

Playing humans, early on in the game, I came across and subjugated an independent world of Boskarans. It gave me a nice foothold for a Boskaran border, and allowed me to make use of large number of otherwise useless volcanic planets. Then, as it always happens, I ended up at war with the Boskaran empire.

Poof. 20-odd colonies rebel - about half joining the bugs and half going independent. I retake the critical ones, and I'm left paying outrageous garrison support to keep them! Not to mention the strategic and economic bung that my enemy has suddenly acquired.

I'm not sure, but this seems ridiculous. There's simply NO WAY that I can keep a hold of the colonies. It's too expensive to keep them garrisoned. And to make matters worse, I have to micro-manage my colony ships to make sure that I don't make more Boskara colonies - they just rebel immediately, but if I just right-click on a prospective colony location - the AI doesn't factor in the immediate rebellion that will result once the colonists land. It only looks at the closest colony that can make a colony ship which can accommodate the planet type.

Egads, this is making the game close to unplayable. A dinky little "empire" of two systems declares war on me - and bang - my 40-odd system empire goes into mass revolt.

Am I missing something, or did they dramatically increase the unhappiness penalty for being at war with a colony's race? If so, then how am I expected to counteract it? A base with recreation and hospital doesn't come anywhere NEAR balancing the unhappiness. Garrison each and every one of the planets? That would bankrupt me - and is it really reasonable to have each and every colony ship accompanied with a troop transport of garrison troops?

OK, sorry - this is starting to become a rant. It seems to me that they tweaked the numbers, and made it so using independent races for colonization is VERY dangerous - and provided absolutely NO means of avoiding it, short of micromanagement.

[WoodMan]

Ouch, unlucky mate.  Look on the brightside, that Boskara Empire may now be more of a challenge [:D]

On the more serious side though, I've never since I bought the game had a single colony leave my Empire through rebellion [&:]  The only thing I can think that I did different to you is that I don't invade independant colonies, I usually colonize the friendly ones and ignore the ones of disloyal nasty races.  (I assume Boskara have low loyalty).

[Data]

A dinky little "empire" of two systems declares war on me - and bang - my 40-odd system empire goes into mass revolt.

This is not the only sufficient prerequisite for revolting, there must have been other factors eating away at the happiness long before that....i used to get into that also until I changed my taxation policy, started buildind medical and recreational facilities at colonies, etc etc...the works

[J HG T]

Also, something I sometimes forget when being in war for long time, war weariness can cause some serious rebellions and fleets changing sides. Has happened to me couple of times when playing with "good" races.

[Data]

yap, but this takes time to build up....Kayoz complains about the fact that it happens immediately after they declare war; as I've said, I've been there too
never will I be again [:D]

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Data

This is not the only sufficient prerequisite for revolting, there must have been other factors eating away at the happiness long before that....i used to get into that also until I changed my taxation policy, started buildind medical and recreational facilities at colonies, etc etc...the works

Nope, only war I was in till that point - absolutely none before. Additionally, tax at 0% in all cases - that's the default AI tax setting for relatively new, which covers all the Boskara race colonies I had rebel. For the few which I had ports, medical/rec facilities only give +7 total, compared to -27 for being at war with the bugs.

Given what I can see of happiness mechanics, there's no feasible way I can hold onto those colonies - short of dropping economy-killing numbers of troops.

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

...I don't invade independant colonies, I usually colonize the friendly ones and ignore the ones of disloyal nasty races. (I assume Boskara have low loyalty).

I don't think any race has "low" happiness. Securans and Shandar have happiness bonuses, but no race has a happiness penalty - or that I'm aware of.

[WoodMan]

They don't have low happiness, but I think low loyalty means they need less to revolt.  So while they aren't less happy, they revolt at an earlier unhapiness.  I think... as I said I've never had a rebellion, but I think thats what the loyalty stat does (along with them being more likely to backstab their allies).

Edit: Okay, here it is quoted from a very old thread:

· less susceptible to defection from high cultural influence of nearby colonies of other empires

Thats what loyalty does, it doesn't say anything about defection in general and how loyalty affects that, just about cultural influence defection. [&:]

[Kayoz]

I'm not aware of reliable/dependable rating of a race having any influence on happiness or revolt chance. Have you seen something I haven't?

I thought reliability only influenced the "randomness" of their diplomatic interactions.

[Kayoz]

Blah - still comes down to the same problem - mass rebellions once they declare war on me, and from what I can see, I have no recourse but to suck up insane garrison bills and leave troops on all my planets of the race in question. Add to that, the fact that most players will bribe pirates for independent colony locations for a quick population boost - and well, it makes for a very messy situation indeed.

I think I'll have to put this in Tech Support as a bug - unless I've missed something and this is not the intended mechanic.

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

· less susceptible to defection from high cultural influence of nearby colonies of other empires

Thats what loyalty does, it doesn't say anything about defection in general and how loyalty affects that, just about cultural influence defection.

Nope, cultural defection wasn't the problem - it was the massive happiness hit when I went to war with their race. To me it seems ridiculously high - shouldn't it scale with colony size? And why is the effect immediate and irrevocable, as opposed to scaling with the length and intensity of the war? Seems poorly implemented to me.

[Data]

Kayoz, please confirm as I've seen you put it in another thread....you're on DW 1.0.6.0, correct?
Though I cannot recall seeing something like this even there either but it may be relevant

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Data

Kayoz, please confirm as I've seen you put it in another thread....you're on DW 1.0.6.0, correct?
Though I cannot recall seeing something like this even there either but it may be relevant

Nope, I haven't yet - I wanted to see if I was missing something obvious before I tagged it as a bug.

And nope, currently using 1.502.

[Setekh]

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

On the more serious side though, I've never since I bought the game had a single colony leave my Empire through rebellion [&:]  The only thing I can think that I did different to you is that I don't invade independant colonies, I usually colonize the friendly ones and ignore the ones of disloyal nasty races.  (I assume Boskara have low loyalty).

This is exactly what I do too and I also have never had any rebellions since the day I bought the game.

[Larsenex]

Data can you explain how I can build medical and research facilities at my planets? Are you taking a small base and adding those modules to it?

I was thinking of modifying a small base and adding Rec Rooms, Medical facitilies and research to it but I think that would make the cost of my empire go nuts. However I do have ALOT of trade going on which is a considerable offset.

[elanaahova]

ORIGINAL: Larsenex

I was thinking of modifying a small base and adding Rec Rooms, Medical facitilies and research to it but I think that would make the cost of my empire go nuts. However I do have ALOT of trade going on which is a considerable offset.

TWO ways to do this. (1) Design a small spacebase, add med and rec fac, and bare bones supporting modules. Build it at the planet. or (2) design a spacebase that is just like the one that is already there, but add the rec, med facilities, and then order the current base to "refit" to the new design - this may be quicker, because i don't think 'refit' replaces modules that are in both the old and the new spacebase.

[Larsenex]

Ooo and I can add scanners and a few more 'loadin dox' for dem space dockworkers to move cargo! Ah Trade, the life blood of my stellar empire!

[elanaahova]

Absolutely, but remember, the bigger the design, the longer it will take to build, and come on line. If the natives "below" tend to be hostile, getting the med, and rec modules built may take priority over building a suitable trading hub... oh, the trade offs. of course, you could build the the smaller one, and then refit it to a trading hub...

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: elanaahova

TWO ways to do this. (1) Design a small spacebase, add med and rec fac, and bare bones supporting modules. Build it at the planet. or (2) design a spacebase that is just like the one that is already there, but add the rec, med facilities, and then order the current base to "refit" to the new design - this may be quicker, because i don't think 'refit' replaces modules that are in both the old and the new spacebase.

The problem remains, that the happiness penalty for being at war with a colony's race cannot be mitigated no matter what you do or invest in the colony.

War penalty: -27
Rec/Med: +7
= more than enough to make any colony rebel

So until you get points from development or special ruins (or otherwise), there's no way to hold onto colonies short of garrisons constantly fighting down the rebel units that pop up. This really doesn't seem to be "reasonable behaviour" for the game.

[elanaahova]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: elanaahova

TWO ways to do this. (1) Design a small spacebase, add med and rec fac, and bare bones supporting modules. Build it at the planet. or (2) design a spacebase that is just like the one that is already there, but add the rec, med facilities, and then order the current base to "refit" to the new design - this may be quicker, because i don't think 'refit' replaces modules that are in both the old and the new spacebase.

The problem remains, that the happiness penalty for being at war with a colony's race cannot be mitigated no matter what you do or invest in the colony.

War penalty: -27
Rec/Med: +7
= more than enough to make any colony rebel

So until you get points from development or special ruins (or otherwise), there's no way to hold onto colonies short of garrisons constantly fighting down the rebel units that pop up. This really doesn't seem to be "reasonable behaviour" for the game.

You are absolutely right. A starbase by itself (hospital/recreation) is not enough, by itself, to address the war penalty. Like so many things in DW, a number of trade offs / factors are relevant to making effective decisions as a player. QUESTION: Do most players feel the war penalty of -27 is too extreme?

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: elanaahova

QUESTION: Do most players feel the war penalty of -27 is too extreme?

Too much or too little depends on the intent with which it was introduced.

Was it their intent that you face mass revolt - for which the ONLY option is a massive garrison campaign? Or was it to present an inconvenience, so that you have to be more careful when facing off against different races? Or was it so that you're forced to maintain garrisons on captured worlds?

As usual, the intent of CodeForce's implementation is as transparent as CIA financial records.

[WoodMan]

hmm, haven't played for a while so my memory may be a bit rusty to be honest but I've never had a colony defect because of these reasons (or for any other reason).  My high population colonies, usually have a happiness of 16 and a tax of somewhere between 30 and 40 (if I recall correct, its 26 to begin, then as my rep goes up and the Human history is revealed its 32, or around 40 if I have Securan immigrants).  Reducing tax by 1 increases happiness by 1, this would be enough to offset the -27 easily.

As for small colonies, thats where my memory is rusty, they have 0% tax, and I can't remember the happiness.  If its less than 27, then the colony would revolt like you say.  In fact, I think it is usually around the 20-30 region.

I think its fine and balanced, but obviously something vastly different is taking place in your Empire.  However, as I said before, I don't invade hostile races independent colonies, this is for RP reasons, not practical reasons though.