Hammer and sickle

[Horst Wessell]

I see that Moscow has the hammer and sickle, but Berlin has the black cross instead of the swastika. I'm sure the hammer and sickle would have been offensive to someone from a gulag. Maybe even from a german POW. Maybe someone from east germany. Was the swatika kept out for financial reasons? I know with the political correctness today, not wanting to hurt someone's feelings. But with so much effort to make the game historical, was it left out for financial reason's or political correctness, or political pressure? When in the 60's I was involved in a game for Avalon Hill called Origins, we left the swastica in because that is what represented Germany. I would especially like to hear from Joel, I think we started board gaming about the same time.

[heliodorus04]

Swastikas are ROUTINELY kept out of games with international distribution.
They are illegal in Germany. Period.
Any other stupid complaints?

[2ndACR]

Easy, the tone is not needed to explain why it is not there.

But yes, the swastica was left out due to legal issues in some countries. It was asked and answered a long time ago.

I also think it was said that if you wanted to make a mod, you could, Matrix and 2by3 cannot be held liable for a mod.

[Ketza]

[2ndACR]

tm.asp?m=2642120

Here is a mod and an answer from Erik from Matrix Games.

[Horst Wessell]

So much hate on this site. Never mind, I don't need this. It is a great game, I am new to this site. I won't return.

[2ndACR]

Sorry you feel this way. I apologize for the harsh tone above. 

[V22 Osprey]

Please excuse Heliodorus, Mr. Wessell. Not all of us are like that.

Heliodorus, are you having a bad day? Not sure why you think it would be common knowledge for an American to know about GERMAN laws? A country an entire ocean away?

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Please excuse Heliodorus, Mr. Wessell. Not all of us are like that.

Heliodorus, are you having a bad day? Not sure why you think it would be common knowledge for an American to know about GERMAN laws? A country an entire ocean away?

Really.

Way back when, I didn't know. Or had a reason to know either. That was back in the day when the Avalon Hill was the only game in town.

[heliodorus04]

I stand by my description of the complaint as stupid.
You're talking about the most comprehensive Eastern Front wargame ever released on computer (and arguably ever) and you're going to debase that work with a complaint that the Swastika is not included.
Moreover, you impugn the courage of the designers and publishers of the game with allusions that they did not have the fortitude to 'hurt someone's feelings'.
And on top of that, you then impugn the designers and publishers' integrity in stating that because they use the Hammer & Sickle, they thus are hypocrites.

Offensive.
Stupid.
Thus, my 'tone.'

I make no apology.

Helio, out!

[Zebedee]

Interesting choice of user name.

[KenchiSulla]

Thats what I was looking at as well, Zebedee. Why would Horst Wessel want a Swastika in a computer game. [:-]

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I stand by my description of the complaint as stupid.

Never confuse lack of knowledge with lack of intelligence.

Bad manners should also not be confused with either, but they never reflect well on the person with them.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Thats what I was looking at as well, Zebedee. Why would Horst Wessel want a Swastika in a computer game. [:-]

Don't forget Horst Wessel was a communist irl who died is street battles against fascism. Goebbels just took over the song about him and turned his story on its head.
Our thread starter may just be a red under the bed but I am in no position to take a poke at those who choose silly names.

[gradenko2k]

So much hate on this site. Never mind, I don't need this. It is a great game, I am new to this site. I won't return.

I'm not necessarily saying that heliodorus' response was completely OK, but at the same time you're going to have to develop a much thicker skin than that if you're going to spend any amount of time on the internet.

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Thats what I was looking at as well, Zebedee. Why would Horst Wessel want a Swastika in a computer game. [:-]

Don't forget Horst Wessel was a communist irl who died is street battles against fascism. Goebbels just took over the song about him and turned his story on its head.
Our thread starter may just be a red under the bed but I am in no position to take a poke at those who choose silly names.

?. He wrote the lyrics, and he was not a communist.

I am usually not really biased about stuff like this. Fascists were not the only murderers of innocent people (especially during the 30s and 40s). I see a lot of people with "waffen SS" oriented avatars. I wouldnt do it myself but I can understand the fascination with a "sort of elite" German militairy organisation.... But having the login name of Horst Wessel (fascist marter) and starting a thread about "political correctness" of the hammer and sickle / swastika is asking for responses like this.....

[Skanvak]

Personnaly, I find the German law on the swastika (in historical game) and those who follow it to be shortsighted.This tell something false. Telling something false is negationnism. Then, it make every one believe that Stalin is better than Hitler? Gloups. and last but not least it does not show how criminal and inneficient the Nazi regime was (the final solution draw on rail transport and lower it for military operation). And of course using the actual german army symbol to represent nazi shoudl be insulting to german... (may be game designer can do as in Dragon ball and use just a cross :lol )

I am a strong believer that in correctly describing the nazi regime game does something pedagogic.

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Personnaly, I find the German law on the swastika (in historical game) and those who follow it to be shortsighted.This tell something false. Telling something false is negationnism. Then, it make every one believe that Stalin is better than Hitler? Gloups. and last but not least it does not show how criminal and inneficient the Nazi regime was (the final solution draw on rail transport and lower it for military operation). And of course using the actual german army symbol to represent nazi shoudl be insulting to german... (may be game designer can do as in Dragon ball and use just a cross :lol )

I am a strong believer that in correctly describing the nazi regime game does something pedagogic.

Perhaps it is short sighted but you have to think about three things:

- When was the law implemented?
- How scarred are european countries to this day?
- Who would dare starting a discussion on withdrawing the law (what would your motivation be?)

[Skanvak]

Though I agree with the implied answer to the 2 first questions.

I think that the third question is obvious : to tell the true story to our children. Japanese are regularly pointed out because they don't tell the truth, the law prevent the truth to be told in historical game or historical reckonning) so it seems obvious to me that this is a sound basis to change it.

And in country where the law is not, I think we could attack the game designer for negationism.

[KenchiSulla]

Skanvak, if I read your answer you seem to connect the swastika to the truth. You can still tell the truth without showing possible offensive symbols in videogames... Or can't you?

Problem with swastika and in fact a lot of other Nazi symbols is that they are, till this day, being used by groups of people who do not appreciate the differences between human beings. In fact, they think the problems they are facing are being caused by certain groups of people. Does that ring a bell?

Symbols from Stalins Soviet Union, or Imperial Japan are perhaps used for the same purpose but seamingly to a far lesser extent...