Question for the history guys..is this real?

[GBS]

Why do the SU fight so much more effectively in the early turns in the South. There are lots of huge Tand Divs there as well. I am getting Held results over and over, even on isolated units. The units in the North seem smaller and fold up pretty easily. Is this what really happened or am I just getting some unlucky rolls?
Why are the SEC units so hard to rout or shatter? They almost always retreat and you end up chasing a 1800 man unit for 40 miles creating small casualty numbers at each engagement which results in another retreat.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: GBS

Why do the SU fight so much more effectively in the early turns in the South. There are lots of huge Tand Divs there as well. I am getting Held results over and over, even on isolated units. The units in the North seem smaller and fold up pretty easily. Is this what really happened or am I just getting some unlucky rolls?
Why are the SEC units so hard to rout or shatter? They almost always retreat and you end up chasing a 1800 man unit for 40 miles creating small casualty numbers at each engagement which results in another retreat.

With regard to the SEC regiments, it's their morale.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: GBS
Why do the SU fight so much more effectively in the early turns in the South. There are lots of huge Tand Divs there as well. I am getting Held results over and over, even on isolated units. The units in the North seem smaller and fold up pretty easily. Is this what really happened or am I just getting some unlucky rolls?

SU committed to the South Western direction most of its best equipped Mech Corps. Many of the units there have experience above averange and tend to be much better supplied than their counterparts on the Western and North Western directions. Some of the best Soviet commanders can be found as well on SW commands. The only thing that was as hopeless as in the northern sectors was the initial deployment.

EDIT: My English is broken this afternoon.

[timmyab]

Yes, the NKVD sec units are masters of the reargaurd delaying action.Not altogether certain why they don't rout more often, I wonder if they are subject to special rules?
Can't say that I've noticed any difference between North and South.

[cookie monster]

NKVD Security units get a morale bonus it's covered in the scenario rules.

Best uses for them .... delaying actions... then rail them to man the Finnish no attack line at 50% TOE under STAVKA command.

[timmyab]

Ah yes, so they do.
I also notice in the same rules section that units in the Southwest get a morale bonus of 10 which would explain the OP's results in the South.

[paullus99]

SW Front did have more troops, better officers, and a bit better logistical pipeline historically - the Germans were concerned enough to divert the Panzers from AGC to complete the big encirclement at Kiev.

[ComradeP]

The good quality Tank divisions can be one shot weapons. An attack or two and you'll lose hundreds of tanks. Losses you can take for a while, but not forever unless you disband other Tank divisions. Force them to retreat once or twice and they quickly lose their offensive punch.

[randallw]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Ah yes, so they do.
I also notice in the same rules section that units in the Southwest get a morale bonus of 10 which would explain the OP's results in the South.

Morale bonus?

[timmyab]

Yes, according to 23.3.4.2.Also a bonus of 5 for units in the Moscow area.
edit - Initial morale that is.

[ComradeP]

That generally means Kiev M.D./SW Front units will have around 50 morale, and (STAVKA) units in the greater Moscow area a morale of around 45-50.

[Redmarkus5]

It's reasonably historical, in my view. The Axis did struggle to advance in the south as rapidly as they were advancing in the centre and north...

[Shellshock]

ORIGINAL: GBS

Why do the SU fight so much more effectively in the early turns in the South. There are lots of huge Tand Divs there as well. I am getting Held results over and over, even on isolated units. The units in the North seem smaller and fold up pretty easily. Is this what really happened or am I just getting some unlucky rolls?

The Soviet Forces facing Army Group South were probably more ably led than in any other sector at that point. General Mikhail Kirponos of the Kiev Military District was one of the few Soviet commanders alert to an attack on June 22, 1941 and in the following weeks manuevered his forces much more appropriately to the situation than did the hapless Pavlov up north. Plus, Army Group South had only one PanzerGruppe to Army Group Center's two. It took bungling standfast orders from above by Stalin to finally ruin Kirponos' position with the disasterous encirclements at Uman and Kiev. The last one resulting in his death. Plus, that sector did have the bulk of the Soviet Tank and Mech Divisions.

Also during the drive into the Ukraine, Sixth Army found itself having to contend with constant flank attacks from the Soviet Fifth Army from it's sanctuary in the Pripet Marshes.

So, if you're having a bit more trouble there it sounds historical. [;)]

[EastWarHistorian]

Historically true.

Stalin believed that in the event of war with Germany, which he never personally believed was possible until Germany actually attacked in June 1941, that Hitler's primary objective would be the vast food-growing areas, mineral deposits, and industrial centers of the Ukraine. Therefore, he ordered that his best and strongest available units be stationed in the southwest.

[barkman44]

The soviets had some of their best units in the south and they were positioned pretty far forward.
This led to some speculation that the soviets were preparing to strike west and thus barbarossa was considered a pre-emptive strike by the germans.

[Panama]

Soviet conscripts had two years of service. NKVD typically had three. So they were better trained which in turn made them better soldiers.

If you have the time read "Bloody Triangle". The Soviet south was a complete mess. Mech corps ordered to march and counter march losing tanks to breakdowns the entire way not to mention attacks by German air forces. For instance, the 8th Mech Corps was ordered to march from Sambor to Stryy to east of Lvov to Yavorov to Busk. If you look at a map it's a pretty fair 'Z' pattern. They left a lot of tanks along the roads.

The Mech Corps had little infantry support because the infantry had no transport. They had little artillery support because they had no transport. Some of the KV-2 had no ammo. No one knew what the other units were doing much of the time so coordination was bad at best. Rumors of German tanks could freeze units in place awaiting an attack that would never come. The Soviet 'Eagles' were in the air but not in support of any offensive moves. There wasn't enough training. There wasn't enough ammo. There wasn't enough equipment. There wasn't enough of anything other than commmisars shooting officers who were brave enough to say that it would take time to get their troops in proper position to attack. And yet despite all of this the Soviets were able to bloody some of the German tank units.

It was all pretty much over by the time the last Soviet attacks took place July 1 and 2.

The Soviets were in no shape to defend their own country let alone mount an offensive against the Germans in 1941. The German pre emptive propaganda was just that.

[Rasputitsa]

I would also strongly recommend 'The Bloody Triangle - The Defeat of the Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941' to anyone wanting to understand the situation of Russian forces on the South-Western Front. I wrote a review in the thread 'Recommended litterature for eastern front ?' in page 10 of the forum.

tm.asp?m=2677115&mpage=3

Despite the huge problems and shortages the Russians forces suffered, they were able to impose a check on the German advance, even though it was short-lived and resulted in enormous loses. South-Western Front started with over 3000 tanks and after the equivalent of less than two WiTE turns they were reduced to 300.

I prefer the original OKH plan for Barbarossa with a motorised Korps emerging from Rumania into the Dnieper bend. Armoured forces were in the Balkans after the Greek campaign and could have been moved to the Southern part of the front. Hitler cancelled this part of the plan, thinking that the Dnestr river would be too much of a barrier. Barbarossa would have been transformed if AGS could have overcome the Soviet Kiev grouping, without the need to divert PzG 2 from AGC.

I am using KLYDON's 'OKH scenario mod' for the GC, as it was a more viable plan without Hitler's interference.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DPRJ73LB

Additionally, re-allocating XXXXVI PZ Korps from PzG 2 into PzG 1, further strengthens AGS and now you have the prospect of AGC and AGS moving clear of the Prypet marshes, in step and able to support each other, without loosing momentum toward Moscow. [:)]