help needed with Operation Blue scenario

[fcam1387]

Hi guys,


I've been playing Operation Blue as the Axis and continue to struggle. It seems as if the Axis need more troops in order to sustain their historical advance. I seem to get bogged down by masses of Soviet troops about 5-6 hexes away from Stalingrad. It also seems as if there is no way to divide your already meagre forces to prepare for an advance into Stalingrad and the Caucasus like what happened historically.

On another note, I can't seem to merge some of those annoyingly under-strength German brigades / regiments into more combat effective divisions - are there certain conditions you need to meet in order to do this?

If anyone has some tips for this scenario, it would be appreciated.

[Micke II]

I encounter exactly the same problem.It's impossible to achieve what the Germans have historically have done. In the scenario you can take without too much difficulties Voronev and Rostov but you cannot approch Krasnodar and Stalingrad being bogged down with myriades of russian units even if you have destroyed 20 or 30 divisions or corps before.
It seems that in the scenario the reinforcements arrive too early compare to the historical situation. In July and August 1942 Germans were facing milices and weak tank corps. In the scenario, as early as turn 3, powerful guards corps are blocking the road to Stalingrad. The scenario has to be redesign completly because these units appears in the reality in September and October.

[fcam1387]

Yeah, unless you manage to circle 1/3 of the Soviet army on the first turn (impossible because of the lack of Panzer Corps) you will not have the opportunity to either reach Stalingrad or the Caucasus.

[Great_Ajax]

Here are some pictures from my Op. Blue game I played back in December.

Trey

[Great_Ajax]

Caucasus.

[Great_Ajax]

This scenario was researched down to the individual Soviet rifle brigades and divisions arrival dates and using Glantz's Stalingrad series on release dates for the various reserve armies. Almost all of the reinforcements arrive at 40-60% strength except for the ones that arrive from the Far East. If you have some different data, I would be happy to review it.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Micke II

I encounter exactly the same problem.It's impossible to achieve what the Germans have historically have done. In the scenario you can take without too much difficulties Voronev and Rostov but you cannot approch Krasnodar and Stalingrad being bogged down with myriades of russian units even if you have destroyed 20 or 30 divisions or corps before.
It seems that in the scenario the reinforcements arrive too early compare to the historical situation. In July and August 1942 Germans were facing milices and weak tank corps. In the scenario, as early as turn 3, powerful guards corps are blocking the road to Stalingrad. The scenario has to be redesign completly because these units appears in the reality in September and October.

[Great_Ajax]

The killing blow west of Stalingrad which allowed the capture of Stalingrad on Turn 9-10.

[Micke II]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

The killing blow west of Stalingrad which allowed the capture of Stalingrad on Turn 9-10.

Yes very impressive. But are you playing with the original scenario or have you modified it ?

[Great_Ajax]

It was the latest version, unmodded on normal difficulty.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Micke II

ORIGINAL: el hefe

The killing blow west of Stalingrad which allowed the capture of Stalingrad on Turn 9-10.

Yes very impressive. But are you playing with the original scenario or have you modified it ?

[Blind Sniper]

Trey, AI or PBEM?

I'm playing this scenario by PBEM (turn 8) and my opponent has started to create his defence behind the Don and not in the middle of the steppe.
He made a checkerboard defence until the river, then he formed a continue line with good unit. At the moment I'm trying to move around his defence.

[Great_Ajax]

This was against the AI. That's the problem with specific objective scenarios where both players already know each other's objectives. You just can't inject that uncertainty and both players can avoid the historical mistakes.

Couple of key objectives that have to be done quick are the Germans have to capture Voronezh and Rostov in two turns in order to get over the Don. Stalingrad of course will be a fight but your main objectives are in the open plains south of the Don where your panzer can really maneuver.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

Trey, AI or PBEM?

I'm playing this scenario by PBEM (turn 8) and my opponent has started to create his defence behind the Don and not in the middle of the steppe.
He made a checkerboard defence until the river, then he formed a continue line with good unit. At the moment I'm trying to move around his defence.

[Micke II]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

This was against the AI. That's the problem with specific objective scenarios where both players already know each other's objectives. You just can't inject that uncertainty and both players can avoid the historical mistakes.

Couple of key objectives that have to be done quick are the Germans have to capture Voronezh and Rostov in two turns in order to get over the Don. Stalingrad of course will be a fight but your main objectives are in the open plains south of the Don where your panzer can really maneuver.

Yest but I do'nt see with the troops you have and the numerous soviet forces how to take at the same time Krasnodar and the Caucasus and Stalingrad.
Take the line of the Donetz is easy but after the Don you are facing 4 of 5 lines depth of soviet troops everywhere.

[Great_Ajax]

I'm not going to lie to you. Its damn hard to get all of those objectives. Baku is near impossible but Stalingrad is achievable. I'm thinking about raising the VPs at Stalingrad and lowering the ones on Baku to give the Germans some chance at a major victory. In my AI game I took Stalingrad but failed to take Grozny and Baku resulting in an Axis minor victory.

My basic strategy is to focus all efforts on the drive east first by taking the Don line to provide flank protection. I have 6th Army drive straight towards Stalingrad with the 4th Panzer Army on its left flank and 1st Panzer Army on its right flank. Those mobile divisions are absolutey deadly in outmaneuvering and surrounding the Soviets in pockets and the Soviet units are easily prone to routing. Once the Don is secure with Stalingrad, I wheel south into the plains. Without hardly and defensible terrain, the Soviets are easy pickings again. Its when you start getting down into the Caucasus mountains that things start getting really hard. I wonder how my game would have ended if I had focused more on Grozny-Baku instead of driving for Krasnodar-Maikop. The original goal of this campaign had Stalingrad as a minor objective. I need to try a game where the 1st and 4th Panzer Armies run straight south into the caucasus and see what happens.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Micke II

ORIGINAL: el hefe

This was against the AI. That's the problem with specific objective scenarios where both players already know each other's objectives. You just can't inject that uncertainty and both players can avoid the historical mistakes.

Couple of key objectives that have to be done quick are the Germans have to capture Voronezh and Rostov in two turns in order to get over the Don. Stalingrad of course will be a fight but your main objectives are in the open plains south of the Don where your panzer can really maneuver.

Yest but I do'nt see with the troops you have and the numerous soviet forces how to take at the same time Krasnodar and the Caucasus and Stalingrad.
Take the line of the Donetz is easy but after the Don you are facing 4 of 5 lines depth of soviet troops everywhere.

[Micke II]

El Hefe, of course maps you have provide are speaking by themselves but to reach what you have achieved is really challenging for me.

Soviet were lacking troops in July, August 1942. A space of more than 300 km between Stalingrad front and Caucasus front was empty of soviet units. Troops of the 60th motorised german division reached Elista on the Caspian Sea. I don't see in this scenario things like that possible.

[Blind Sniper]

I think playing the last beta patch and against a competent Russian player is impossible to take all objectives.
Capture Voronezh and Rostov in two turns is feasible but your are using all your Armored Force in this task but maybe is the way to go.

That's the problem with specific objective scenarios where both players already know each other's objectives.

You are right, after this game I will try Typhoon and then it's time for my first CG. [:)]

[Great_Ajax]

Its a difficult task to balance any scenario for Human vs. Human and Human vs. AI play. I shot for Human vs AI and I got close to the historical end line. I think if I had drove the 1st and 4th Panzer Army southeast directly towards Grozny instead of towards Krasnodar that I might have made better progress.

As far as the troops, the Southwest Front starts at a strength of around 40%. The Soviets started immediately pouring reinforcements from other sectors. In the game, most of these arrive at 50-60% strength. I went through Charles Sharp's Soviet series of books by every corps, division, and brigade that arrived in the south as a reinforcement.

The Germans are going to have problems achieving those same gains with player foresight. Both players know the Victory Point situation and objectives and they know when the scenario is going to end.

If there is some data or aspect that I am missing out on, I don't mind making changes.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Micke II

El Hefe, of course maps you have provide are speaking by themselves but to reach what you have achieved is really challenging for me.

Soviet were lacking troops in July, August 1942. A space of more than 300 km between Stalingrad front and Caucasus front was empty of soviet units. Troops of the 60th motorised german division reached Elista on the Caspian Sea. I don't see in this scenario things like that possible.

[fcam1387]

Fair enough, el hefe.


Just to clariffy, you made to Stalingrad AND the Caucasus in the one scenario (can't really tell by looking at the min-map)? If that's the case, then I salute you! A pretty amazing effort.

[Tarhunnas]

I haven't played the Fall Blau scenario, but I am currently playing a 42-45 GC PBEM as the Soviets, we are only 6 turns in, but I am already feeling that there is a balance issue. My opponent hasn't made any obvious mistakes, yet I feel that I as the Soviets have lots of troops and no real worries, I have plenty of reserves left while I suspect most of the Axis resources are committed, and my strength is growing all the time. The main thing holdning me back from launching general offensives at various points is my lack of trucks. I seriously think the Soviets are overpowered, and since the starting forces are similar to op Blau, I believe the balance issues might be the same in both cases.

Edit: Spelling error.

[MengJiao]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I haven't played the Fall Blau scenario, but I am currently playing a 42-45 GC PBEM as the Soviets, we are only 6 turns in, but I am already feeling that there is a balance issue. My opponent hasn't made any obvious mistakes, yet I feel that I as the Soviets have lots of troops and no real worries, I have plenty of reserves left while I suspect most of the Axis resources are committed, and my strength is growing all the time. The main thing holdning me back from launching general offensives at various points is my lack of trucks. I seriously think the Soviets are overpowered, and since the starting forces are similar to op Blau, I believe the balance issues might be the same in both cases.

Edit: Spelling error.

Historically, the Soviets really were pretty overpowered in 1942. Most of the time they were launching offensives somewhere and eventually they did a lot of damage. The game gives the Axis the advantage of a big win at 2nd Kharkov before opening the 1942 campaign. I made a campaign scenario that started in April and the Normal Axis AI got nowhere and indeed was losing ground fast by September.

Maybe a scenario that lets the Axis bring in troops from the West after Dieppe or a win in Africa might be better for the Axis.