Berlin--September 1942--Some Observations

[76mm]

Not sure if this is best in AARs or where, but wanted to share some observations after finishing my first campaign game vs the German AI; I took Berlin in early September 1942, and the game ended in October 1942.

While this was on "Normal" preferences, and I will try it on "Hard" or "Challenging" or whatever next time, I don't think it should be this easy even on "Normal." Also, I understand very very well that human opponents are much more difficult and will play more PBEM games, but still, I also enjoy games against the AI.

Anyway, here are my observations, I think fixes should be considered for some of them:

1) The Germans really never had a chance--while they did OK in the North and Center (reaching the outskirts of L'grad, taking Smolensk, and threatening Brryansk), they never did anything in the South; didn't take Vinnitsa, were some 10-12 hexes West of Kiev, and never took Odessa. Thus I kept most of my manpower. Not sure what can be done about this other than vastly improving the AI, which is probably not feasible.

2) Beginning in November 1941, I could create massive amounts of units. More units than I could ever use; Indeed, for the first half of 1942, I had two entire FRONTS in reserve behind the lines (as well as many armies in other fronts), just because I couldn't fit them into the line. When the game ended, I had one front which hadn't moved at all since early 1942, and most of two other fronts were far, far behind the lines and thus useless. I know the Sovs had numerical superiority, but is this realistic? I believe that in the latest patch, Sov manpower has been reduced or slowed down, hopefully this will mitigate this problem, but am not sure.

3) The blizzard of course was brutal for the Germans, as expected. But the real problem was that just when they started to catch their breath in the Spring of 1942, I could create massive numbers of Rifle Corp, which started kicking the snot out of them all over again. By mid-1942, massive holes had been ripped in the north (near Riga) and south (near Lvov). The Germans never recovered, and after that there was never really a solid front along most of the front (only in the very center and in the mountains in the south). I think that the Sovs should not be able to create so many rifle corps so quickly, it gives them too much offensive punch too early, which doesn't seem realistic.

4) German strategy/tactics were pretty awful. Not sure if this can be fixed, but maybe the AI can be tweaked. The AI was very bad about letting units be encircled, either in ones-twos or by the dozen. It just didn't react as units were gradually isolated. I should look at the numbers, but I'm guessing that I captured a couple of hundred axis divisions; indeed, by the end, I was generally only facing security divisions/regiments or apparently reconsituted (and very weak) divisions. After mid-1942 on most of the front I rarely encountered German units with a CV of greater than 1. A second problem was that the AI insisted on using the panzer divisions in the most inappropriate places, at various points commiting several panzer divisions to the Pripet Marshes, the mountains in Rumania, and the Rumanian plains (seven panzer divisions!) even as the rest of the front crumbled to dust.

5) After mid 1942 my biggest problem was not the Germans but supply. I didn't have, and couldn't create any of the "directable" RR repair units, so had to wait while the autonomous units repaired the rail. When the game ended, most of the units were still near the Sov border, so my units had very long supply chains. Nonetheless, they were generally able to keep attacking attacking attacking. Two comments: I think that the RR Repair units should be available at the latest, when you leave Sov territory, not in 43 or 44 when they arrive as reinforcements. It is kind of ludicrous to think that the Sovs could not figure out how to repair rail? Also, although I had supply diffiiculties, not sure if they were great enough given the vast distances between my leading units and the railhead. I'm not sure if they should have been able to attack at all at that point. Note that I tried to keep my leading army supplied by air, the range was very far so could only do one or two drops per turn.

6) Axis Allied Surrenders. Rumania surrendered as soon as I took Galata during the winter. Hungary, however, kept fighting well after I had captured much of Hungary, including Budapest. Hungarian units kept fighting for at least two full turns after I'd captured Budapest, which is not right according to the manual, which says that Hungary should surrender when Budapest is taken. Bug?

7) EDITED I forgot to add this one before--for some reason, the AI failed to, or maybe I should say refused to, defend most cities. After crossing the Russian border, I am guessing that 80-90% of the cities were captured without a fight. Often my units would move up next to a city occupied by Germans, and the next turn the Germans would be gone! All of the Berlin hexes were captured without a fight. It is really odd, especially since automatic victory is calculated on the basis of cities captured.

Anyway, just wanted to post my results, hopefully some tweaks could be made to make the AI more challenging. I have saved games for the entire war if any of the devs want to look at them.

[randallw]

What patch was this game played with?  The newer ones have a higher cost for putting together rifle corps, delayed rifle brigade combining ( to 1942 now ), and a lower manpower multiplier for 1941 and 1942.

[jomni]

Wow! I know normal AI is easy but no way am I going to be able to reach Berlin in September 1942.

[76mm]

It is not the latest patch, I think it is 1.03 beta 3 if that sounds right.

I was aware that the manpower issue had been addressed in a later patch, but had not heard about the rifle corps and brigade issues--hopefully these fixes will address the most important issue on the Sov side: the overwhelming and unrealistic [fixed typo] force that they could bring to bear by the end of 1941.

Hopefully they can look at tweaking the AI to address the other issues and look at why Hungary did not surrender.

I'd be kind of interested in playing another game at "Normal" to see if the latest patches make much of a difference, but am not sure I'd want to spend so much time on another easy game.

[TulliusDetritus]

76mm, don't get me wrong but I think you savaged the AI. No matter what, always remember the AI is a little kid [:)] And we already know the German AI is weaker. You should try a historical game vs the AI. This means you should stop attacking the AI when you see weak spots and stick to a historical plan for example. Try to recreate the war. That or you will destroy the AI, just like you did. I don't think any patch will stop us from slaughtering the AI by the way. A historical game is the way to go, methinks.

[horza66]

I would recommend skipping the challenging AI. I had it beat by Oct '42 too, though the early turns were a bit more interesting.

I'm playing the impossible AI at the moment, and it is pretty much unstoppable. I've lost one game by trying the checkerboard and tarbaby approach, and am presently in 9/41 with a SirRobin approach. I've preserved the Army this time round, but have lost a great deal of industry that could not be evacuated.

You have to accept that Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh, Kharkov will all fall, and fall relatively early. I'm about to lose Stalino at the moment, but should hold Gorkiy. I will need a very good winter in order to avoid defeat in '42.

If the game stays interesting through '42 (ie no inevitable loss or win) I'll write it up as an AAR.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
76mm, don't get me wrong but I think you savaged the AI. No matter what, always remember the AI is a little kid [:)] And we already know the German AI is weaker. You should try a historical game vs the AI. This means you should stop attacking the AI when you see weak spots and stick to a historical plan for example...A historical game is the way to go, methinks.

Hmm, I hear what you're saying, and that's an interesting proposal, but it sounds awfully boring to me--ie, not really trying. Maybe it would be easier to skip turns, give up certain cities intentionally, etc.? Frankly, I'd probably stop playing the AI at all before I did that, I don't love the game THAT much!

And I don't mean to be too harsh towards the AI, in the North and Center, I think it did a pretty good job on offense. It just seems to be that its favorite "carpet defense" tactic does not work for the Axis, because there are not enough units, and it doesn't know how to defend otherwise.

ORIGINAL: horza66
I would recommend skipping the challenging AI. I had it beat by Oct '42 too, though the early turns were a bit more interesting.

I'm playing the impossible AI at the moment, and it is pretty much unstoppable. I've lost one game by trying the checkerboard and tarbaby approach, and am presently in 9/41 with a SirRobin approach. I've preserved the Army this time round, but have lost a great deal of industry that could not be evacuated.

You have to accept that Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh, Kharkov will all fall, and fall relatively early. I'm about to lose Stalino at the moment, but should hold Gorkiy. I will need a very good winter in order to avoid defeat in '42.

If the game stays interesting through '42 (ie no inevitable loss or win) I'll write it up as an AAR.

Whoa, sounds tough, please write it up if you get a chance, at least in very summary format. Hopefully there is some "Goldilocks" level of play vs the AI, maybe via custom difficult settings?

[TulliusDetritus]

76mm, hmm another option, taken from the game between the Utter Clown (abulthing) vs Wheatley. Change forts, morale parameters. The Germans should steamroll you [8D]

[TulliusDetritus]

Take a look, 76mm. You might want to play with these parameters. Oh, and good luck [:D]

tm.asp?m=2716300

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Take a look, 76mm. You might want to play with these parameters. Oh, and good luck [:D]

That's just the new patch, right, or are there some other parameters? And I'm already getting steamrollered in PBEM game as Sov, don't really need any more of that. But I would like to find a challenging and enjoyable, but not impossible, way to play against the AI.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

And we already know the German AI is weaker.

Actually, is this true? I didn't think that the "German" AI is weaker, just that the AI has a harder time attacking than defending...I actually expected that the German AI would do a pretty good job once it reverted to the defence, but found the opposite to be true--it attacked pretty well in the north and center (OK, it sucked in the south), but did not defend well anywhere (except the mountains, where it totally over-comittted).

[TulliusDetritus]

76mm, now I'm at work so I can't look. When you start a new game check the OPTIONS: fow, fort, morale, administrative points, etc. Wheatley did that (favouring the German player) and was truly massacred.

These were the settings, from that AAR.

GC
Settings:
Fort 80% Axis 50% soviets
Admin 110% axis
Morale 110% axis

In other words, this has nothing to do with the patches. And yes, it has been said many times by the developers: the German AI is weaker (or whatever euphemism they used).

EDIT: I know you are talking about the AI. I too am only thinking about the AI when I say "change some parameters".

[Klydon]

The reason the Hungarians may have stuck around on you is there is a die roll when surrender conditions are in play. The die roll is modified by the number of German divisions in Hungary (I am guessing a lot of them were) and it could be possible that the Axis were "lucky" to keep Hungary in the war.

My game is headed in the same direction as his is, although I don't know that I would make it by September 42. I played with a later patch as well. The Germans did not get Kiev or Odessa in my game either although they were on the doorstep of Kiev. Odessa was a nightmare for them. I may post an abbreviated AAR on it at some point simply because the blizzard offensive is so destructive and fits in with the conversation going on about the 1941 winter right now.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
These were the settings, from that AAR.

OK, I looked in that linked AAR but didn't see any settings, just a discussion about various patches. Also, isn't that AAR for a PBEM game? If so, I'm not sure if those settings will be appropriate for a game vs the AI.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
The reason the Hungarians may have stuck around on you is there is a die roll when surrender conditions are in play. The die roll is modified by the number of German divisions in Hungary (I am guessing a lot of them were) and it could be possible that the Axis were "lucky" to keep Hungary in the war.

The manual says that Hungary will surrender whenever Budapest is occupied by the Sovs; my understanding is that the die roll only applies when cities other than Budapest are taken.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I may post an abbreviated AAR on it at some point simply because the blizzard offensive is so destructive and fits in with the conversation going on about the 1941 winter right now.

At the beginning of the blizzard, I would have to use a deliberate attack by three stacks to force the Germans back a hex. By the end of the blizzard, I could generally do a hasty attack with one stack and force one of their weaker stacks to retreat. Then the Germans gradually got better until I could form a couple of dozen rifle corps, then it was pretty much all over.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
These were the settings, from that AAR.

OK, I looked in that linked AAR but didn't see any settings, just a discussion about various patches. Also, isn't that AAR for a PBEM game? If so, I'm not sure if those settings will be appropriate for a game vs the AI.

I pasted those settings on the #12 message [:)]

Fort 80% Axis 50% soviets
Admin 110% axis
Morale 110% axis

You could play with the parameters and see what happens. On the PBEM mentioned above it was a total mess.

That... or stick to a historical campaign. In WitP AE you have NO choice if you want to play vs the AI: play historically. Yes OR yes [8D] This game is not as massive and complex as WitP but it's still a monster game. Do NOT expect a Deep Blue (chess)...

[Sabre21]

Normal settings are a necessity for human vs human play. If all things were perfect, playing on normal against the ai should work too, but unfortunately it doesn't do as well as we all would like it to. We all know a human vs ai will never be the same as a human vs human on equal terms..at least not in the near future. What I recommend is that when playing against the Ai, do so on challenging. If you seem to beat the challenging ai too easily, they go with hard. There is a big difference when you cross into the hard difficulty levels, be ready for a whooping.

The ai tends to handle defensive operations more effectively than it can offensive, so I tend to play the 41 campaign against the Soviet Ai on challenging where as when playing against the German Ai, I go with Hard. Makes for a much more entertaining game.

Also make sure you play with the latest updates.

[bevans]

Admittedly, I am playing as the Axis and on my modded version but with most of the Axis settings on 90 and the SU on 110, I am getting all I can handle. By turn 6 or 7, the SU had 250 units (admittedly some of them were 0-0's) between Pskov and Gomel and another 125 arced in front of Kiev. That is the defensive advantage that the SU has, the ability to generate a carpet defense up to 100 miles deep (just like the historical. Not); by the time you get to those 0-0s, they are in level 3 forts and have a CV of 70. The Germans rely on a single line of good divisions, after the blizzards of 41/42, they just don't have them. It is now turn 12 and I still have 12 divisions (2/3 of them Rumanian) hammering at Odessa every turn. The casualties are starting to look better at Odessa, only lost 4000 vs a little over 2000 SU so maybe I will take it before winter, or maybe not. Just completed a big encirclement between Pskov and Vitebsk, closing at Veliye Luki (or just in front of it); bad news was that I used every Pz Corps in 2nd, 3rd and 4th Pz Gruppes to do so, so at the moment, I don't have a single Pz between Vitebsk and Nikolaev, where 1st Pz is completing another pocket. I played as the SU once, briefly, and can only second the view that the Axis AI is not as good. I think there are several parts of that: programming offense is harder than defense and I wonder how good the SU AI will be in '43-'44; it is far easier to program a defense that relies on vast quantities of fairly expendable but tough units versus a relatively few very good/elite ones; I firmly believe that the Germans have been nerfed by a rigid adherence to historical production levels (fair enough) and TOEs (not fair at all, something I changed big time in my mod) and the first winter rules which seem to be overly harsh and designed to ensure that, at the very, very best, the Germans will be capable of only limited offensive action in '42. Plus they assumed that a large majority of single player games would be played as the Germans, so that is where the effort went. The playing field is definitely slanted against the Axis and so when you play the SU, you get to play downhill with the wind behind you all game.

I do agree that playing badly so as to not take advantage of a bad AI just has no fun factor; suggest that you do play with the modifiers until you find settings that give a challenging game.

[randallw]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

It is not the latest patch, I think it is 1.03 beta 3 if that sounds right.

Your current version may also have the swamp/rough super defense modifier, which accidentally made them too strong; the beta 5/6 patches eliminated the fault. The result of the 5/6 is that the Soviet side will have a little more trouble defending in 1941.