War Plan Red

[KPatton]

I contacted the 2by3 crew and they recommended I post this here.

I'm big fan of your Pacific War Campaign series, starting with Uncommon Valor, War in in the Pacific and War Plan Orange. I was wondering if you have given any thought to using the same game engine to address War Plan Red (and Scarlet), the War with Britain and Canada? I think it would be a big hit, on both sides of the Atlantic. The bashing of Japan and Germany have gotten old, and it would be great fun to see how things would go in a war between the UK and the US. If you wanted large scope, of course you could include the Pacific as well, as it was proposed that Japan might enter the fray with the UK, or at the very least, Australia and New Zealand might make a grab for US possessions in the Pacific while the UK tried to capture Pittsburg and the Panama Canal Zone.

[Captain Cruft]

No chance of Matrix doing this.

It would need a completely new map, which is a massive massive task.

[DuckofTindalos]

And the potential customer base would be minute. No ROI.

[wworld7]

I like "what if's", but I can't see any company putting resources into such a project.

But, please tell me what could happen to cause England and Canada (never) to delare war on the U.S.?

[DuckofTindalos]

Go look up War Plan Red.

[Alfred]

The theoretical possibility is also for the USA to declare war against the UK.

Two British "provocations" in the 1920' and 1930s which might have led some hotheads to call for conflict might have been:

(a) complete repudiation by the UK of all WWI war loans from the USA
(b) imposition of prohibitive tariffs on imports from the USA

Alfred

[Captain Cruft]

I think a more interesting fantasy mod along these lines would be the old "Germany conquers Europe then decides to have a go at the US" thing. In conjunction with Japan which attacked the SU in 1941 instead of the Western Allies.

If someone wants to pay me for a year I could make a start ... [8|]

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Go look up War Plan Red.

War Plan Red

Thanks T,

The plan I already knew.

What I never bought was the supposed reasonable justification behind it.

Absolutely was never and is never going to happen. Sort of like Malta declaring war on Canada (ie: NEVER HAPPEN).

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The theoretical possibility is also for the USA to declare war against the UK.

Two British "provocations" in the 1920' and 1930s which might have led some hotheads to call for conflict might have been:

(a) complete repudiation by the UK of all WWI war loans from the USA
(b) imposition of prohibitive tariffs on imports from the USA

Alfred

Calling for a conflict and getting Congress to declare a DOW are two seperate animals.

As for the above, IMO, the USA response to both would be a trade war that the USA would win.

[noguaranteeofsanity]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Go look up War Plan Red.

War Plan Red

Thanks T,

The plan I already knew.

What I never bought was the supposed reasonable justification behind it.

Absolutely was never and is never going to happen. Sort of like Malta declaring war on Canada (ie: NEVER HAPPEN).

Agree. I doubt trade or war reparations would be a reasonable justification. While any conflict over colonial territories seems unlikely, given that it would most likely be a South American country or a Caribbean Island, which have little to offer either country in way of resources and are hardly worth going to war over; with the same being true for most of the pacific islands.

Although, there is always Celine Dion...

[Blackhorse]

while the UK tried to capture Pittsburg and the Panama Canal Zone.

Pittsburg? [&:]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

while the UK tried to capture Pittsburg and the Panama Canal Zone.

Pittsburg? [&:]

Evidently unbeknownst to the public at large his Majesty the king and Stanley Baldwin had a thing for Iron City Beer.

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
Absolutely was never and is never going to happen.

As unlikely as the US going to war with its ally Italy in 1919 you might say. And yet Woodrow Wilson, at the Paris Peace Conference, personally ordered the Arizona, serving as his escort, to sail from France to Smyrna in Turkey to prevent the Italians occupying it and eject them by force if need be, an occupation which had been agreed in the 1917 Anglo-Franco-Italian agreement of St-Jean-de-Maurienne, formalising the promise in the 1915 Treaty of London that Italy would receive a share of the spoils from the destruction of the Ottoman Empire. Ultimately the other allies had Greece occupy Smyrna to preempt the Italians there, leading to massacres of the Turkish population and ultimately the fall of the moderate Italian government of Orlando and the rise of the Fascists under Mussolini. Result!

Turning back to War Plan Red, there were a considerable number of virulent Anglophobes in the higher ranks of the USN right through into WWII if not later, most notably the WWI CNO William Shepherd Benson and the WWII CNO Ernest King. "We would as soon fight the British as the Germans." Benson, 1917. "Four Great Powers have arisen in the world to compete with Great Britain...Each one of those powers in succession have been defeated... A fifth commercial power, the greatest one yet, is now arising to challenge at least for commercial equality with Great Britain. Historical precedent warns us to watch closely the moves we make or permit to be made." USN Planning Section Memorandum, 1919. Equally the UK was formally allied with Japan, which the US already regarded as its clear rival for dominance of the Pacific and War Plan Orange assumed the chance of the UK being drawn into the conflict on the side of Japan. Activation of War Plan Red was never likely, but it was certainly possible.

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
I like "what if's", but I can't see any company putting resources into such a project.

And yet sitting on my shelves are:
War Plan Gold (US vs France in the Caribbean in the 20s)
Black Waters (War Plan Black, US vs Germany in the Caribbean in the 20s and War Plan Silver, US vs Italy in the Med in 1919)
Sea of Troubles (War Plan Red, US vs UK in the Caribbean in the 20s)
Confederate States Navy (US vs CSA in the Caribbean in the 20s)
Reichsmarine (UK vs Weimar Germany and just about everyone else in the 1920s).
Spice Islands (Greatly enlarged Dutch fleet vs Japan in the NEI in WWII)
The Tsar's Navy (The Imperial Russian fleet in WWII)
and I have Imperal and Royal Navy (The Austro-Hungarian Fleet in WWII) on order.

All from Avalanche Games for the Great War at Sea or Second World War at Sea game systems (board wargame rather than computer based) and selling well enough that new releases are fairly regular.

[wworld7]

Well, my opinion is unchanged, so I still can't see this happening.

But, I have been wrong before, and for sure I'll be wrong at times in the future.

As for 2by3, they appear to have a full plate the next couple of years with the next iteration(s) of WITE.

Beyond this time frame I guess anything is possible, so good luck with your wish.

P.S. The relationships between USA and England (and Canada) have a deeply ingrained bond of interdependence. As such, I cannot paint any viable scenario where the USA would declare war on either. Of course we don't always agree, and at times we argue, but since the mid 1800's we will always (at least as far as I can see into the future (and the past) find a way short of war to resolve ANY differences.