Upcoming books of interest

[Commanderski]

There are 2 new books being released next weekend. One is the second volume of Barbarossa Derailed: The Battle for Smolensk by David Glantz. The first one was very good, lots of good information and was like reading a detailed AAR on this game.

The second one is . Demolishing the Myth: The Tank Battle at Prokhorovka, Kursk, July 1943: An Operational Narrative by Valeriy Zamulin and Stuart Britton. It's the English version of the book that was printed in 2005. Valeriy Zamulin is a former Deputy Director and Director of Research at the Prokhorovka Battlefield Park Museum and had access to documents not readily available to the public. Should be some good information in that one

[runyan99]

Interesting, I wonder exactly what myth Mr. Zamulin is referring to.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Does Glantz ever sleep? I mean two volumes, with third and possibly fourth planned in the future, about ONE battle, that most historians don't even consider all that important.

Anyhow, regarding Smolensk, it's pretty hard to replicate that battle in WITE due to - ta-dammm - here I go again, so I apologize for being annoying... due to supermen, ie problem we currently have with two waves of supermen, in this case German summer supermen.

Take for example this excerpt from Glantz's Smolensk book dust cover:

"Instead, Soviet forces encircled in Mogilev and Smolensk stubbornly refused to surrender".... what, they evaporate in one turn in WITE? [:D]... "and while they fought on, during July, August, and into early September, first five and then a total of seven newly-mobilized Soviet armies struck back viciously at the advancing Germans, conducting multiple counterattacks and counterstrokes, capped by two major counteroffensives that sapped German strength and will."

Five or seven armies in the massive (counter)attacks! "Major counteroffensives"!

I already wrote many times, being annoying to some, that due to "supermen syndrome" any sensible coherent multi unit counterattacks are nigh on impossible for the untermencsh side (Sovs in summer or Germans in blizzard). The best a lucky player can hope for is 6 CV Kiev MD tank division catching unlucky Rumanians in the open and making them retreat one hex. There are simply no rational provisions for, say, coherent, 2 army Soviet counterattack to "sap German strength and will", as described in Glantz's book.

Anyone else sharing my opinion? We discussed Soviet winter supermen ad nauseam, and I agree winter mechanics need to be tweaked, now does anyone think summer mechanics should also allow for more Sov army sized counterattacks? As it is both summer and winter of 41 are too one sided for my taste.

Discuss...

[Commanderski]

Does Glantz ever sleep? I mean two volumes, with third and possibly fourth planned in the future, about ONE battle, that most historians don't even consider all that important.

It does seem he comes out with more books than some daily newspapers..[:)] The reason he is concentrating on Smolensk is that he wants to show how important it really was and that it severly altered the Germans plans and timetable.

I would have to agree that the AI would be more impressive if it did some counter attacks during the first year but they may not be able to do that due to coding issues. However the AI is really great at slowing you down if you don't take advantage of any opportunities to make a breakthrough.

Maybe it would be possible to tweak the AI for the Smolensk scenario as it wouldn't have to cover the entire front and multiple seasons and years.

[Oleg Mastruko]

I am not talking about AI - even though what I say applies to the AI as well. I am talking about general inability to attack 8 CV supermonsters (let alone 14 CV) with 1=1 units. It simply cannot be done, whether 1=1 ants are led by human or the AI. Counterattacks do not exist as feasible operational option in summer 41 for Soviets, instead of "sapping German strength and will", they would in fact stregthen German "will" (ie morale).

Currently summer and winter of 41 are very one sided affairs.

Also this is kinda-sorta reply to those who think fort building ability is overpowered. With counterattacking option outta window, the only thing 1=1 ants can actually do, is stay on the defence and build forts. Take fort building capability, and you might as well remove them from the map altogether.

[squatter]

I'm sorry, but if the best you can come up with as Sovs is an attack on a Rumanian div, then you are really bad at this game. I suggest you take a look at some of the more recent AARs to pick up some tips.
 
Spoken in the interests of balance. Dont mean to hijack OP. Please carry on.
 

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: squatter
I'm sorry, but if the best you can come up with as Sovs is an attack on a Rumanian div, then you are really bad at this game. I suggest you take a look at some of the more recent AARs to pick up some tips.

OK so I am bad at this game [:D]

Now squatter, having admitted how bad I am at this game, would you be so kind as to please point me to an AAR with something EVEN REMOTELY resembling: "first five and then a total of seven newly-mobilized Soviet armies struck back viciously at the advancing Germans, conducting multiple counterattacks and counterstrokes, capped by two major counteroffensives that sapped German strength and will".

All that in summer 41, of course. No one is denying that Sovs have the ability to attack in winter (in fact they are overpowered in winter, but if you don't know that already, you're not visiting the forum too often).

[squatter]

Sure, off the top of my head take a look at ComradeP (Axis) vs notenome (Sovs), or JIMiAM (Axis) vs ComradeP (Sovs).
 
 

[Oleg Mastruko]

I don't think there is anything resembling what Glantz describes in his multi-volume treatment of Smolensk in those AARs you mentioned. Couple lucky attacks that's all. Some of them due to 1:1 modifier, which Comrade Pieter hates with passion. [;)]

I still wait to see multi-army summer Sov offensives. (Glantz mentions 5 to 7 armies, I'd be OK with just, say, 2-3.)

[Belphegor]

ORIGINAL: runyan99

Interesting, I wonder exactly what myth Mr. Zamulin is referring to.

perhaps this one:

this book refers to a work by KH Frieser as yet untranslated

[Jajusha]

235 tanks lost for the soviet, 3 panzers lost for the germans. Sounds like a WITE battle report alright!

[runyan99]

With regard to Kharkov as The Greatest Tank Battle in History, and a blundering German defeat, another recent work also overturns the 'myth'. John Mosier's 'Deathride' also argues that Kharkov was a battle the Germans were more or less winning when Hitler pulled the plug and decided to send the elite German units to the Western Front. Further he argues that the Russians were taking the bulk of the casualties as always, despite the Germans attacking into the prepared defensive belts. Interesting perspective.

[Aurelian]

You mean Kursk[:)] Not Kharkov.

[squatter]

Oleg, a couple of notes about the battle of Smolensk, other than the fact it included elements of several armies:
 
1 it was an operational/tactical decisive defeat for the Russians.
 
2 it took place over the course of a month, more or less. (four turns in WitE)
 
I see plenty of operations that adequately reflect all of these elements (including the number of Sov armies involved) in the two AARs I referred you to.
 
You talk about seeing 'lucky' attacks, or attacks that only succeed due to the Sov +1 modifier, so you appear to be seeing the evidence, yet not processing it. And the reason ComradeP dislikes the +1 odds modifier is because he believes it makes it too EASY for the Sovs to make successful counterattacks in summer 41, precisely the reverse of your argument. Probably best for you not to cite that fact in future when you continue to expand on your supermen thesis.
 
Dont get me wrong, there is plenty to improve in the game, and there is a grain of truth in your summer/winter supermen argument. It's just that the way you tell it makes it sound like Western Civilisation is about to collapse. For my part, the thing about the Smolensk counterattacks that the game doesnt simulate is the use of Soviet armour. As it stands in WitE, Soviet armour is completely useless in offensive operations due to lack of MPs to make deliberate attacks. Counterattacks are still easily made (as per ComP's argument), it's just that they are best made by infantry swarms.
 
IRL, counterattacking T34s and KV1s took a toll on German armour, in the game they dont even get to counterattack.  
 
 
 

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: runyan99

Interesting, I wonder exactly what myth Mr. Zamulin is referring to.

I imagine the big one will be the once and still believed in some quarters myth that Kursk was the "Death Ride of the 4th PanzerArmee" where the Germans lost hundreds/thousands of tanks including more Tiger I's than were actually present during Operation Zitadelle.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: squatter
You talk about seeing 'lucky' attacks, or attacks that only succeed due to the Sov +1 modifier, so you appear to be seeing the evidence, yet not processing it. And the reason ComradeP dislikes the +1 odds modifier is because he believes it makes it too EASY for the Sovs to make successful counterattacks in summer 41, precisely the reverse of your argument. Probably best for you not to cite that fact in future when you continue to expand on your supermen thesis.

Personally I am undecided on the 1:1 modifier. I understand why Pieter hates it with a passion, I personally have no feelings about it although Pieter is probably right if we put it within the whole "supermen vs supermen" theory. Obviously someone felt Germans are so superman-ish that Sovs need some heavy modifiers (like blizzard or 1:1 thingie) to be able to do something.

Lets just say 1:1 in my opinion belongs to stuff to be discussed later, after other supermen problems are solved.

Dont get me wrong, there is plenty to improve in the game, and there is a grain of truth in your summer/winter supermen argument. It's just that the way you tell it makes it sound like Western Civilisation is about to collapse.

I am sorry but I really cannot accept this. Everything I say I say in pretty relaxed manner. We may disagree about the ability to reproduce Smolensk, as Glantz sees it, in current game mechanics, but where do you see "collapse of the civilization" in my posts is beyond me...

[squatter]

Just a figure of speach Oleg: I simply mean to say that I think you exaggerate massively. (ie: "The best a lucky player can hope for is 6 CV Kiev MD tank division catching unlucky Rumanians in the open and making them retreat one hex." This sentance is, I'm afraid, nonsense, as demonstrated by the slew of 'lucky' attacks against full panzer and motorised divisions in the two AARs I referred you to).

[mmarquo]

"counterattacking T34s and KV1s took a toll on German armour, in the game they dont even get to counterattack."
 
Squatter,
 
In fact there are ways to attack with this Soviet ants...three stacks of three 2's is 18 points...coupled with cavalry and a few sacrificial inf unf units and let the party begin. To be able to attack in 1941 one must adopt a Soviet mindset, something that most players can't emotionally stomach.
 
Marquo [:)]

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

In fact there are ways to attack with this Soviet ants...three stacks of three 2's is 18 points...

[X(] [X(] [X(]

Where have you seen so many 2CV Sov units??

If you have a surplus of 2CV Sovs, let alone 9 of them concentrated in so compact area, please sell some to me. When I see 2CV Sov unit before Oct 41 it's like I've seen Chuck Norris in person. I cherish the very sight of that holy number "2" on a counter... [&o]

Besides, if you have so many 2CVs, then obviously German is not doing his job right. Good German will take care that no Sov 2CV unit survives it's first week on the frontline [;)]

[PeeDeeAitch]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
When I see 2CV Sov unit before Oct 41 it's like I've seen Chuck Norris in person.

[:D] This was funny.