Breaking open pockets as the Soviets?

[Encircled]

Always, leave them to die or as and when?

I'm a big fan of always trying to break one open, as it slows the Germans right down. Obviously if its a ring of super strong units, it isn't always possible.

I'm aware of the risks of more forces getting cut off, but it appears to be worth the risk (so far!)

[bevans]

I've only played the SU a bit, to get a feel for what it is like on the other side. Break them open if you can (unless the next encirclement will be even worse due to those units putting their heads in a noose). It struck me that the most gamey response was to move everyone WEST and defend (well, die/surrender) in depth. This will leave the German mop up infantry even further behind the Panzer spearheads which will seriously effect any German offensive until they catch up. Even in '41, the Panzers can't run infinitely in front of the infantry.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: bevans

I've only played the SU a bit, to get a feel for what it is like on the other side. Break them open if you can (unless the next encirclement will be even worse due to those units putting their heads in a noose). It struck me that the most gamey response was to move everyone WEST and defend (well, die/surrender) in depth. This will leave the German mop up infantry even further behind the Panzer spearheads which will seriously effect any German offensive until they catch up. Even in '41, the Panzers can't run infinitely in front of the infantry.

It really doesn't matter about the noose. If you can sacrifice one additional unit to extend the life of another unit one turn it is worth it. All of your destroyed infantry and armor units return free of charge (they have to be filled out, but if you look so do the ones you are sacrificing). Do anything you can to delay the infantry.

And as to the gamey or not question: the Legion at Cameron, the 20th Maine at LRT, and too many others whose names are lost to history because no one survived to write the history: when you have fired the last bullet you fix bayonets and charge. And IRL a lot of the Russian units did attack to the West because those were the last orders they received from a thoroughly confused Front Command.

[PeeDeeAitch]

In the initial turns I enjoy when the Soviets use forces to break open pocket - this means less fixed defenses, a bit more of a furball, and more losses. I consider the first 10-12 turns good enough to do this, as infantry running up can often take over and reclose any pocket, the corridors surrounding can be widened.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

In the initial turns I enjoy when the Soviets use forces to break open pocket - this means less fixed defenses, a bit more of a furball, and more losses. I consider the first 10-12 turns good enough to do this, as infantry running up can often take over and reclose any pocket, the corridors surrounding can be widened.

As usual, PDH and I are on opposite sides of a tactics question [:)]. Now I freely admit that PDH has a lot more credibility than I do (even with me [:D]) but this one time I do stand my ground, fix bayonets and charge! As long as you are not sacrificing more than one unit I still think it's worth it to open a pocket even if you know it will be sealed again next turn.

Of course I also admit that as the Germans I always love a furball with pockets of pockets of pockets as an alternative to blasting though succesive lines of forts. But I still think it's worth it in 41 (not 42 since you don't get the units back for free anymore). Love this game

[Zoetermeer]

I agree with pompack here. In '41 playing as the Soviets, lives are cheap and time is money! Who cares if you lose an extra division or two as long as you slow down the Germans for a few turns?

[PeeDeeAitch]

My point is that if you do it right you aren't slowed down. A big pocket takes a lot of movement (or buildup), and after it there needs to be rest. A big but reopened (on a small scale - I am not talking about having the entire pocket escape) encirclement can be reclosed by infantry running up to help, the tanks rest some (or in a nice surprise HQ buildup while the pocket is reclosing), and on turn 3 the original is liquidated and the tanks bound forward again to repeat (through lines that have not fortified well.

If done right, it causes chaos, if done wrong it leads to problems. I will grant that.

[heliodorus04]

I'm playing my first GC (and as Soviets, which I have less experience with).

I try to open pockets a lot, and I definitely "Move West" when I cannot save encircled units.

Last turn (Turn 9) I actually had all of Army Group North between Lake Illmen and Lake Peipus drawing supply through 1 hex that had multiple Soviet ZOCs.  All of this was accomplished because I kept opening pockets to 5 divisions along the western flank, and because my opponent kept giving me openings between Velliki Luki and Pskov to keep isolated divisions alive (at one point, I had 12 divisions with their own HQ isolated for at least 3 turns, but now it's down to 2 with no HQ).

In the South, while most of my re-openings ultimately failed, I accomplished 2 things: I kept the Axis far west of the Dnepr, and I kept them from being able to quickly/easily use the shortest railroad path for FBDs (it helps that I still have Odessa on T9, because that blocks off the Southern FBD pretty notably).

(Note that my opponent is only 15 hexes from Moscow on T9, so it's not all roses in my game, and my attempts to hold open corridors hasn't been effective).