Persuade me

[LarryP]

I own the original AT and it's one of my favorite Matrix games. However, looking at all the screenshots and reading all I have about the new Gold game, is it really that much more game for the price?

[Tac2i]

Having play tested ATG for the last several months (and also an owner of the original), I'd say definitely yes it is worth it, especially since as an owner of the original AT you get a $15 discount. So for a much improved game you only have to pay $25. That is a good deal and it is backward compatible with almost all, if not all, AT scenarios. If you haven't seen my ATG Random Game Highlights post, take a look.

ORIGINAL: LarryP

I own the original AT and it's one of my favorite Matrix games. However, looking at all the screenshots and reading all I have about the new Gold game, is it really that much more game for the price?

[LarryP]

Aren't most of the additions graphical?

I already got my promo code for the $15 price drop, just in case. [;)]

[henri51]

Yes in my view, if not for the scenarios, then for the vastly improved interface and graphics.The biggest difference in scenarios at the moment is the random scenarios, where you have resource locations, but it is certain that modders will create new scenarios or modify existing ones to take into account the new features.

Just to take one example, I downloaded and installed (there is now a button to unzip and install automatically) the old WaW U4 scenario. This old scenario uses the new ATG graphics and features that were not in the old game. It is my impression that the AI is faster, but since I played only one game, I am not sure.The user interface is the new one, where it is much easier to see all the information about units and so on. The one feature that impressed me most was the optional ability to see enemy units move during the AI moves in areas where your units could normally see them.

If you are tight for money it might be better to wait until you get a better idea of the improvements from AARs and forum discussions. But I was in such a hurry to get the game that I didn't even wait for the information about how to get a discount for AT owners, and ordered the game as soon as it became available, but I can afford it, which may not be the case for everyone (in the last 2 weeks I bought 2 Matrix games and 2 Steam games).

Henri

[Tac2i]

[Clipped this from a previous post I made and slightly edited]
A list of ATG additions/changes that I've noted. Has been awhile since I played AT so hopefully my list doesn't include things in the original game. Correct me if it does. I'm also sure I've probably left stuff out. The biggest change affecting game play, in my humble opinion, is that captured enemy cities can not produce combat units. The second biggest would be the addition of resources (oil and ore). Thirdly would be the addition of factories.

Random Game Changes
At start countries with a standing infantry army in place
Countries start at peace
Costs 20PPs to declare war
AI players randomly declare war on other AI and human players
Can make alliances with other human players
Can give hexes to an ally
Can give units to an ally
Can trace supply through ally's territory
Can stack with ally's units
Automatic map sharing with ally (they see everything you see)

Production
Oil and Raw (ore) hexes added to map
Motorized units consume fuel (oil) as they move
Production of "metal" units consume ore.
Captured enemy cities can only produce Political Points, recycled oil or ore.
Can build factories - Gun, Plane and Tank
Can capture enemy factories and resource hexes and make use of them

Units
Torpedo Bombers
Strategic Bombers
Mobile Assault Guns
Tank Destroyers

Miscellaneous
The AI plays much much faster
Three zoom modes
Beautiful new map graphics
New unit graphics
Revamped Random Game creation panel
More powerful scenario editor
In general, defense against attack is slightly stronger.
Armored units, without infantry support in the same hex, are more vulnerable to infantry attacks.

[Grymme]

For the modest sum of ~25$ you can either,
a) go see a movie and buy a hamburger, or
b) have years of more fun with all the updated graphics, features and scenarios of ATG.

[LarryP]

OK, you all did a fine job and I'm downloading it now. Henri51, I can afford it, it's just that I've cut back on my game purchases and am only buying the best of what I call "needed games." This seems to fit into that category quite nicely. [:D]

Webizen, thanks for your input. Your lists really helped me to pull the plastic card out.

It's done downloading already so here I go...

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: LarryP
I own the original AT and it's one of my favorite Matrix games. However, looking at all the screenshots and reading all I have about the new Gold game, is it really that much more game for the price?

It's obviously worth it for keen AT players, assuming they use the discount. It is content 'lite' though for the price, IMHO, which seems to be something of a trend these days with Matrix/Slitherene expansions (e.g. Field of Glory). The UI is a little better, but still nowhere near as intuitive as it should be, and I'm just not seeing "vastly improved interface and graphics". It also needed significantly more new scenarios, IMHO, particularly outside WW2.

[LarryP]

More scenarios yes. I agree.

[Maddoc06]

Is the game significantly faster?

Can it handle bigger maps with more cities and be played without going for a run between turns?

Are the research levels increased (I personally had modded these from the 4 levels to 12)?

I agree that the cost of the game is not enormous but the principle is important for long-standing experienced gamers like myself.

[Rosseau]

I got the game (with the discount) and in about five minutes was happy I did. First, a truly updated 140-page manual. That's very rare in every "gold" game I every bought.

Also, in the intro, Vic talks about working on the AI now. And I believe him. But we have to help by supporting this series.

Loved being able to see all four units in the same hex when zoomed in.

I always liked the scenario Roman_Empire_v1.31.pt2. So knowing nothing, I changed the file extension from pt2 to at2 (Roman_Empire_v1.31.at2) and copied the Roman Graphics folder over to ATG. And the scenario runs.

I'm looking forward to discovering more stuff tonight. Gotta sleep, though.

[henri51]

In the manual and on forums, unless I misunderstood, Vic has stated that the AI speed has been increased by 100%, and that is the impression that I got in the little that I have played so far. If that is a critical point for you, I would wait a bit until the point is cleared up. Of course the larger the map the slower the AI, and I personally did not find the AI unbearably slow for large scenarios like WaW. I have not tried the largest possible random scenario in ATG, but I find that the Xlarge (XXlarge and unbearably large are larger) random scenarios are plenty large. Another thread says exactly how big they are, but if I remember correctly, the largest possible scenario is larger than was allowed in AT.

Henri

Edit: According to the manual, maps up to 171 x121 pixels are playable, the AI has been improved (meaning speed I think) by 100% for large maps, and the AI uses a separate thread in multiple core processors.

Edit2: To check the speed, I started the WaW U4 scenario as Germany. It took less than 2 minutes for the other AI controlled countries to make their moves. Since some of them are more or less frozen initially, I started again and this time put only Germany under AI control (Germany attacks Poland). It took less than a minute for Germany to plan and execute its attack on Poland.

[Maddoc06]

Your advice is sound Henri.

I'll keep an eye on the map size and speed issue before making further decisions.

Did you notice any city number affect on speed?

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: henri51


Edit2: To check the speed, I started the WaW U4 scenario as Germany. It took less than 2 minutes for the other AI controlled countries to make their moves. Since some of them are more or less frozen initially, I started again and this time put only Germany under AI control (Germany attacks Poland). It took less than a minute for Germany to plan and execute its attack on Poland.

Which scenario is this (WaW U4)? I've been looking for a WaW with Poland in the new Gold and I see none. I must be blind...

[henri51]

ORIGINAL: LarryP

ORIGINAL: henri51


Edit2: To check the speed, I started the WaW U4 scenario as Germany. It took less than 2 minutes for the other AI controlled countries to make their moves. Since some of them are more or less frozen initially, I started again and this time put only Germany under AI control (Germany attacks Poland). It took less than a minute for Germany to plan and execute its attack on Poland.

Which scenario is this (WaW U4)? I've been looking for a WaW with Poland in the new Gold and I see none. I must be blind...

This is the WaW revised version U4 scenario that is available in the scenario bank in the Advanced tactics web site along with other WaW versions (click "top downloads" and it is the second from the top). There is a new WaW version in the ATG scenarios, and although it is under the "humans only" tab, it seems to work against the AI too. The one in the AT website is indicated as playable against the AI, so I am unsure whether or not the two play the same against the AI.Try the new one and if you see AI problems download the old one and try that.

Henri

[Barthheart]

ORIGINAL: LarryP

ORIGINAL: henri51


Edit2: To check the speed, I started the WaW U4 scenario as Germany. It took less than 2 minutes for the other AI controlled countries to make their moves. Since some of them are more or less frozen initially, I started again and this time put only Germany under AI control (Germany attacks Poland). It took less than a minute for Germany to plan and execute its attack on Poland.

Which scenario is this (WaW U4)? I've been looking for a WaW with Poland in the new Gold and I see none. I must be blind...

The new WaW sceanrio is in \atgoldscenarios\NEW_WAW_PUBLIC_BETA\HUMANONLY directory

[LarryP]

I was hoping for one that's AI and not just human only. I see it there in the directory, I did not look in the human only directory before. I guess I could play both sides, but that's kind of stupid. I'm not much for PBEM. So I will try it with the AI anyway and see how it works like Henri said.

Thanks to both of you. [&o]

[henri51]

ORIGINAL: LarryP

I was hoping for one that's AI and not just human only. I see it there in the directory, I did not look in the human only directory before. I guess I could play both sides, but that's kind of stupid. I'm not much for PBEM. So I will try it with the AI anyway and see how it works like Henri said.

Thanks to both of you. [&o]

I looked at the old WaW U4 again on the download site, and it definitely says that it is AI capable,and I did start it and it does play OK as far as I can see in one move.So if you want to avoid a restart, I would recommend downloading and starting with the old scenario until the designer can state whether the AI in the new one is playable.

Just download the zipped file, and pressing the unzip button on the start screen will put it in a "scenario" folder (not the "ATG scenarios" folder), where you can see it by changing the ending of the file on the popup on the bottom right when you load the scenario. Then when you save the game, the saved files will go in the usual place with the right ending.

Henri

[LarryP]

Got it. It's the same scenario I played in AT. I wish however that all the items of Gold were included. Like oil and factories. Guess I should study about using the editor and making a WaW Gold scenario that starts with Poland (AI capable), but that takes a lot of time.

If you don't use the file extension box in the right corner like you said, you can miss a lot of files and wander around aimlessly wondering where the unzipped scenarios went! [X(]

[henri51]

ORIGINAL: LarryP

Got it. It's the same scenario I played in AT. I wish however that all the items of Gold were included. Like oil and factories. Guess I should study about using the editor and making a WaW Gold scenario that starts with Poland (AI capable), but that takes a lot of time.

Yes, I looked again at the new scenarios and it is a larger map, and although it does have oil and all that, since it has not been designed for AI play, it is not likely to play well against the AI. Like you I like to play the WaW scenarios against the AI, so it looks like we are stuck with the old ones for the time being...[:(]

Henri