Philippine Q-boats

[Don Bowen]

Big B's shipyard has a new icon for the Philippine Q-boats, so I thought I would post a little data on them. Perhaps an enterprising Scenario designer might add the additional boats...


The Off Shore Patrol of the Philippine Army was conceived as a force of fast motor torpedo boats for coastal defense. It was to work with a planned air force of torpedo bombers to deter any potential invader from approaching Philippine shores. For reasons known only to MacArthur, they were to be known as Q-Boats and given numbers starting with 111 (originally to be starting with 1 but MacArthur changed it).

The original concept was for a fleet of 55 boats in several flotillas (later reduced to 30 boats). Since the US Navy was lagging far behind in development of MTB, the Philippines turned to British shipbuilders. Four (or maybe five?)** MTB were ordered from Thornycroft. One was a 65 foot (overall) boat with a speed of 41 knots. The remainder were 55 foot (overall) boats good for 50 knots.

Q-111 was the 65 foot boat. It arrived in the Philippines in June, 1939.

Q-112 was the first of the 55 foot boats. It arrived in the Philippines in March, 1939. Two (or three)** additional boats were requisitioned in Britain and allocated to Finland. However they were not delivered and were requisitioned again, becoming MTB 67 and MTB 68 of the Royal Navy.

Following the requisition of the remaining boats of the original order, a replacement order was placed with Thornycroft for five more 55 foot boats. These had not been delivered when war began in Europe and were requisitioned June 7, 1940 (becoming RN MTB 213-217). Another replacement order was placed a few days later (June 12, 1940) but there was little hope of receiving these boats and they too were taken over (becoming MTB 327-331). The Philippines and Thornycroft negotiated a cancellation of the contract, providing for the delivery of 10 sets of engines in lieu of the undelivered boats.

There had always been plans to construct follow-on boats at the Marine Railway and Repair Shop (owned by the government Department of Public Works) on Engineering Island in Manila Bay. With no remaining hope of acquiring boats from Europe, a prototype was ordered there. It was completed in early 1941 and named Q-113. This boat was entirely satisfactory, and was faster than either of the two British built units (attributed to lighter local wood used in the hull). Military equipment, including torpedos, were provided by the US Navy. An authorizing act was passed by Congress to allow this transfer.

Twenty four additional Q-111 class boats were ordered from Engineer Island in two lots. The first 10 to use the engines provided by Thornycroft and a follow on group of 14. All of these were under construction by December 7th, 1941. The first pair were scheduled for completion by the end of 1941 (probably optimistic, it was MacArthur after all), with all of the first 10 by the end of March, 1942 (or so...). None of these boats were actually completed as MTB. They were destroyed by Japanese air attack or by scuttling/burning when Manila Bay was evacuated. The OSP did take two “motor launches” on strength under the names Q-114 and Q-115. Some sources indicate that these were the two boats nearing completion, but I can find no hard data to support this and some very good information to the contrary. If so, any hope of equipping them probably ended with the destruction of the US Navy base at Cavite.

The three Philippine Boats were used for patrol within Manila Bay. They exercised with the US Navy boats of MTBRon 3 but I can find no record of them having participated in any operations with Buckley’s boats. All three were still in service when MacArthur evacuated to Mindanao and they demonstrated near Corregidor to cover the departure of US PTs.

Note that all the Philippine boats did not have torpedo tubes. They launched their torpedoes by letting them slip off the stern, the PT then turning quickly to clear the way for the PT.

** An October 28, 1941 report from MacArthur to Marshall, full of the normal self aggrandizement, indicated that three boats had been requisitioned for Finland. However, I can only find supporting information for two and “three” may related to the original order. Google has failed me for more data.

[inqistor]

Interesting. IIRC there were some CVLs arriving at Ceylon, which were destroyed, when port was captured, so modding this PTs to arrive in Manila should work as intended.
But, if they were destroyed by planes, during construction, they should probably be presented at the game beginning, as being under conversion in port.

Anyway, dropping torpedoes should have really horrible accuracy.

[DuckofTindalos]

No.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
The three Philippine Boats were used for patrol within Manila Bay. They exercised with the US Navy boats of MTBRon 3 but I can find no record of them having participated in any operations with Buckley’s boats. All three were still in service when MacArthur evacuated to Mindanao and they demonstrated near Corregidor to cover the departure of US PTs.

Note that all the Philippine boats did not have torpedo tubes. They launched their torpedoes by letting them slip off the stern, the PT then turning quickly to clear the way for the PT.

** An October 28, 1941 report from MacArthur to Marshall, full of the normal self aggrandizement, indicated that three boats had been requisitioned for Finland. However, I can only find supporting information for two and “three” may related to the original order. Google has failed me for more data.

Carl Mydans took some pictures of these in November 1941 for Time. Top photo shows Q-113 on maneuvers. Bottom right has a couple different ones doing maintenance on the hard at Engineer Island. Interesting because the right hand boat has a set of launching tubes abaft the deckhouse, the other one doesn’t. Bottom left shows both of those and another one (don’t say which is which). The far boat of the nest (with the fellow in front of the deckhouse) shows those launching tubes. The closest one is loading torps in the stern skid ramps. Maybe these are Q-111, 112, and 113?


Lots better resolution of these pictures, along with lots more, too.
http://www.life.com/image/53373166 and more images at 53373162, 53373172, 53373226, 53373264, and 53373266
You can even see the pennant numbers. The one with the launchers is Q-111.

[Don Bowen]

Great Pictures! Thanks John.

I seem to recall a comment in Lt. Huff's personal history about problems acquiring torpedo launching tubes and the decision to use the stern-drop method. Did not know that one of the boats actually had the tubes. Lots of stuff on the tensions between MacArthur and the USN on development of PTs in the US for the Philippines. Cost was too high and Dugout Doug thought the USN was overcharging him to fund development costs. Probably true, but then El Magnifico wanted complete control and could not get it when USN was in charge of development. Perhaps Dougie also needed a higher level of anal osculation - that was his style. Excellent data on this in Friedman's US Small Combatants.

The original commander of the Off Shore Patrol was fired by MacArthur after their first meeting. Poor fellow must of told the truth instead of sucking up.

Huff, by the way, was an ex-USN LT. that served on MacArthur's staff as naval advisor. This was duirng the pre-nationalization phase when MacArthur was a Philippine Field Marshall. I think he had an army rank (then or later?). His book did not survive my last move. All the details, and even his full name, were lost to me with the book.

[JWE]

Stumbled across a Philippine Q-boat forum. One of the posters is Philippino and talks about a book on the military history of the Philippines that references Q-boats.

Another thread has plans of Thornycroft 55' Coastal Motorboats (CMBs) and also the Philippine versions. Seems the 55s were designed (way back when) with the stern deployment method. The Thorny 65 was designed with launchers so maybe that's why Q-111 had them and everybody else didn't? Dunno.
http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17215.0
http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=3264.0

[Shark7]

Is it just me, or do those Q boats actually fire their torpedoes by dropping them into the water behind them? From the diagrams, it doesn't appear as if the torpedoes can be launched through the forward arc.

[DuckofTindalos]

That's what this snip from the original post means...

Note that all the Philippine boats did not have torpedo tubes. They launched their torpedoes by letting them
slip off the stern, the PT then turning quickly to clear the way for the PT.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

That's what this snip from the original post means...

Note that all the Philippine boats did not have torpedo tubes. They launched their torpedoes by letting them
slip off the stern, the PT then turning quickly to clear the way for the PT.

So basically if you turn to slow or aren't at enough speed...you get hoisted by your own petard. I'm rather sure I'd not want Q-boat duty.

[DuckofTindalos]

Plenty of other navies used the same technique, the Brits and Italians among them. Dangerous, but doable.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Plenty of other navies used the same technique, the Brits and Italians among them. Dangerous, but doable.

As T notes, during war, "dangerous but doable" things were common.

Early in the forties the Americans were required to defent their east coast from submarines before they were really prepared, and some of the boats used were wind-powered, wooden hulled sloops, rigged with depth charges..
Had any of the depth charges been launched, they would have blown off their own hulls.

Source: Torpedo Junction..Homer Hickam, Naval Press

[Dili]

Plenty of other navies used the same technique, the Brits and Italians among them. Dangerous, but doable.

Yes. HMS Eridge was a total loss after an attack of an MTSM that dropped a torpedo from behind. But it is the only success i know of for this kind of torpedo release.

The following link discuss the eventual use of X Flotila teams against Japan.

In page 78 there is the drawing of an MTSM
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000059 ... 594230.pdf

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: Dili
The following link discuss the eventual use of X Flotila teams against Japan.

X Flotilla -- possibly better known as Decima MAS, although between the Italian Surrender and VE day part of Decima MAS was working for the rump Fascist regime under the original title, while part was working for the Co-Belligerent forces under the Mariassalto title.

It's interesting that the Allied left hand (OSS) didn't know what the Allied right hand (the Brits) were up to, only surmising that the UK had chariots in production because the Italians had them -- this was because of a joint Italo-British operation that sank the Italian cruiser Bolzano at La Spezia and another that damaged the Italian carrier Aquila at Genoa. In fact the British had reverse-engineered pretty much all of the Decima MAS technology, building the Boom Patrol Boat based on the Italian explosive boats and the Chariot based on the Maile/SLC (Siluro Lente Corso - slow running torpedo). And the technology had been taken further, the Boom Patrol Detachment demonstrating the parachute dropping of manned Boom Patrol Boats from the Lancaster B.1 Specials of 617 Squadron, although the weather never cleared enough to allow the planned attack on the Tirpitz before 9 and 617 Sqns took her out with Tallboy. The Boom Patrol Detachment, most famous for Operation Frankton, the 'Cockleshell Heroes' raid on Bordeaux in kayaks, had also independently developed an inflatable body-board similar to the Italian Matrasso described in the article, and the 'Sleeping Beauty' motor submersible canoe, which was used by the Australian Z Special Unit during Operation Rimau, the disastrous second attack on Singapore. Meanwhile the Boom Patrol Detachment's original CO, Blondie Hasler, was in SEAC, as 2IC of the Small Operations Group (a raiding unit active along the Burmese coast), whose sub-units included the Sea Reconnaisance Unit, which had trained to used paddle boards to infiltrate the coast from offshore drop-offs, and SBS and COPPs teams which used canoes for raiding.

As for CMBs, the RN used them extensively, first along the Belgian coast in WWI, with at least one German destroyer sunk, and then during the intervention in Russia, with Lt Agar winning the VC for sinking the cruiser Oleg in CMB-4 at Kronstadt in June 1919, followed by a second attack the following month in which the submarine tender Dvina (ex ACR Pamiat Azova) was sunk by CMB-79, while CMB-88 (despite her captain being killed on the run-in) and CMB-31 sank the dreadnought Petropavlovsk and seriously damaged the pre-dreadnought Andrei Pervozvanny (the larger 55ft CMBs carried two torpedoes each), two CMBs were lost during the attack, while Commander Dobson (CMB-31) and Lt Steele (CMB-88) were each awarded the VC. Several CMBs were built for service during WWII before we settled on the larger Fairmile, Vosper and BPB boats.

[Local Yokel]

Dili, fascinating OSS document, thank you for posting the link - previously I had no inkling that the attack on Bolzano at La Spezia was a joint Italian-British operation, let alone that Luigi Durand De La Penne was a participant! Italians were fabulous underwater men - perhaps they got their inspiration from the salvors of the gold in the Egypt.

Rather than just sliding out at the back, the torpedoes on the CMB's were punched out of their troughs by rams fired by a cartridge. More detail of the arrangement can be seen in an excellent model of a 55' CMB here. Great craftsmanship only slightly marred by the union flag being located in the wrong canton on the ensign.

Evidently 55' CMB MTB-331 still survives in store at Marchwood, Hants. Is this one of the boats intended for export to the Philippines?

[Mac Linehan]

Don -

I never cease to marvel at your - and the Babes's Team's quest, for detail and accuracy when dealing with the small but fascinating elements of the war. Thank you - and the other posters, for another very well done, informative historical lesson.

Local Yokel, the modeler's page with it's excellent photos, gave clarity to the stern drop method used by the boats in discussion - and why that method could deliver a reasonable level of accuracy.
Thank You, Sir.

Mac

[Dili]

dwg like you said the British reverse engineering all they could get from italians, so in a sense they had the chariots because italian had them.
Thanks for info on Boom Patrol Boat something that didn't know that British made a copy off, even less the operation against Tirpitz that unfortunately failed.
In practice the MTM weren't typical "explosive" boats. The explosive cargo was a mine that when the boat hit the hull of enemy ship a mechanism was actioned and dropped the charge that exploded due to water pressure under/near the hull. This was to make much more damage to ships like cruisers and battleships instead of exploding against the armored belt.

Local Yokel glad you liked. The Italians already had underwater special operations in World War 1 Battleship Viribus Unitis was sunk by a human torpedo too. The so called Mignatta with 2 divers - they had to remain with their head above water- and 2 charges. Here is a good history in English from WW1 to WW2 including also British chariots: http://www.panereh.com/History/HOMS.pdf
Between wars the specialized divers of firm SORIMA with both Artiglio steam boats were the gold salvors of S.S.Egypt and certainly developed know how.

[Local Yokel]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Local Yokel glad you liked. The Italians already had underwater special operations in World War 1 Battleship Viribus Unitis was sunk by a human torpedo too. The so called Mignatta with 2 divers - they had to remain with their head above water- and 2 charges. Here is a good history in English from WW1 to WW2 including also British chariots: http://www.panereh.com/History/HOMS.pdf
Between wars the specialized divers of firm SORIMA with both Artiglio steam boats were the gold salvors of S.S.Egypt and certainly developed know how.

From my first quick look at this I can tell this is going to be an illuminating read - many thanks for the link!

On 2 November 1917 the Lyle Shipping Co. steamer Cape Finisterre, inbound to Falmouth from New York with a cargo of steel billets, was torpedoed and sunk by U-boat UC-17 one mile SSE of the Manacles, a notorious reef off the east shore of the Lizard. Twenty years later, in the summer of 1938, So.Ri.Ma. was engaged to salvage the cargo of billets using the techniques and equipment pioneered in the course of salvaging the Egypt's gold. My father and grandmother happened to be on holiday in nearby Coverack at the time, and in the course of a boat trip to the wreck's location were invited aboard to watch the Italian salvage crew at work. My father, using a good quality photographic film, took a number of shots of the crew, the diving turret, and the salvage vessel herself.

Working for So.Ri.Ma. was clearly an incident-filled way of life, for not only did they lose the first Artiglio whilst the salvage of Egypt was in progress but subsequently also lost also the first incarnation of her sister ship Raffio, which had also participated in the Egypt operation. The first Raffio, a Japanese-built vessel, capsized and sank in 1931 whilst attempting to raise a sunken derrick. By 1938 So.Ri.Ma. had replaced her with a somewhat similar vessel of the same name, and it was onto this later ship my father was kindly invited aboard.

His photographs, though small, are of good quality, and clearly show the diving turret used by So.Ri.Ma. divers to provide a running commentary on how the other salvage equipment was to be operated from the surface. They may, indeed, be amongst the best surviving records of this particular piece of Italian innovation in underwater work.

I still wonder what was so special about a cargo of steel billets as to warrant so complex a salvage operation as this.