Partisans v.1.04.11

[Vorsteher]

new rules with partisans ? I play the barbarossa scenario 1941 and in july , partisans attacks my rails ?


V.

[76mm]

haha, that's how it is supposed to work. Apparently it was broken in 1.03, and the partisans didn't get adequate supplies. That is now fixed, and the partisans are back!

[mmarquo]

Yes, but in '41 July? The thugs of the Ostadministration barely had enough time by then to aleinate the Ukranian population into partisanship.
 
Marquo

[Helpless]

First partisan units created from shattered divisions which is historical. However recent fix in supply was made just before the release of the patch, so we didn't had much time to test it. Now we discovered that some partisans can become too strong too early. So they will be toned down.

[kswanson1]

ORIGINAL: Vorsteher

new rules with partisans ? I play the barbarossa scenario 1941 and in july , partisans attacks my rails ?


V.

I've noted a huge increase in partisan activities in my on going PBEM games. I've lost about 150 to 200 miles worth of vital rail road tracks over the last two or three turns. This started in late august of 1941 and has continued into september.

I have been very careful about maintaining all garrisons at 100 to 150%. The enhanced RR-track destruction has made it impossible to advance railheads as the mobile FBD units have to be sent back on foot to repair broken lines. This is not an insignificant issue given how crucial it is for the axis to get railHeads advanced as quickly as possible if they to have even a slim chance of dealing a decisive blow to the Soviets in 1941.

[Joel Billings]

As Pavel said, this will be toned back. However, there is a way to prevent attacks on vital rail but it involves breaking down units and using them for security of the key rails. Although the manual says partisans will attack unoccupied hexes, I think they will not attack in hexes that are adjacent to a combat unit as well. I think this is the case, and a quick test of 42 showed this to be the case. So you could use airbases and HQ to garrison some hexes, and security regiments and Axis Allied units to spread out and cover multiple hexes with there ZOCs. This may be important when you only have a few key rail lines running deep into enemy territory.

[Wild]

Glad to hear it is being toned down some.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

As Pavel said, this will be toned back. However, there is a way to prevent attacks on vital rail but it involves breaking down units and using them for security of the key rails. Although the manual says partisans will attack unoccupied hexes, I think they will not attack in hexes that are adjacent to a combat unit as well. I think this is the case, and a quick test of 42 showed this to be the case. So you could use airbases and HQ to garrison some hexes, and security regiments and Axis Allied units to spread out and cover multiple hexes with there ZOCs. This may be important when you only have a few key rail lines running deep into enemy territory.

Thanks Joel for explaing it, glad to hear they are being toned down a bit, I would agree the partisans seem to have gone wild in 1.04. Well, given your proposed solution, at least this gives the RHQs something to do... [;)]

[gids]

sad very sad :p i seem to love my partisan friends

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


Thanks Joel for explaing it, glad to hear they are being toned down a bit, I would agree the partisans seem to have gone wild in 1.04. Well, given your proposed solution, at least this gives the RHQs something to do... [;)]

you actually kept yours????

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
As Pavel said, this will be toned back. However, there is a way to prevent attacks on vital rail but it involves breaking down units and using them for security of the key rails. Although the manual says partisans will attack unoccupied hexes, I think they will not attack in hexes that are adjacent to a combat unit as well. I think this is the case, and a quick test of 42 showed this to be the case. So you could use airbases and HQ to garrison some hexes, and security regiments and Axis Allied units to spread out and cover multiple hexes with there ZOCs. This may be important when you only have a few key rail lines running deep into enemy territory.

Airbases and HQ's don't qualify as "combat units" in general, do they for partisan warfare?

[mmarquo]

No, but the hex they sit in is safe, that is the point.

[Farfarer61]

a use for the Rumanian airbases and HQs after all

[James Ward]

Won't hq's and airbases be displaced if a partisan moves next to them?

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: James Ward

Won't hq's and airbases be displaced if a partisan moves next to them?

no, but I do find HQ and airbases sitting on broken rail hexes after a partisan appears several hexes away. My favorite is the FDB unit sitting on the railhead with the hex behind it broken. This does not happen with a combat unit.

War is hell and HQ REMFs and aircraft mechanics really don't do well at anit-partisan patrols. And furthermore, even if they did the mechanics wouldn't have time to fix airplanes and the REMFs wouldn't have time to do whatever REMFs do when they work [:D]

[kswanson1]

Not to belabor this, but it I don’t think partisans were capable of destroying 150 to 200 miles of rail road track in a week. I find it equally difficult to except that Partisans could completely destroy even 10-miles of consecutive track in the course of a week. I think it conceivable and very beleivable that they could and did destroy very small sections of track within a 200 mile stretch of rail road track. But destruction of every piece of rail section, every sleeper, every bit of bedding over even a 10 mile stretch of track seems unlikely.

Partisan bands\groups\gaggles – in between looting and terrorizing the local population -- could and did destroy small sections of track via setting explosives or unbolting track from sleepers. Partisan bands would than fade back into the forests and swamps after track destruction. Localized demolition -- while a nuisance -- would not leave an entire 100mile stretch of track inoperable. Localized breaks from Partisans would be discovered and repaired quickly, particularly when every replacement, every kilo of supply, every liter of fuel and every box of ammunition is traveling along a single set of tracks that's ultimately feeding entire Army Groups. As soon as the first supply train or troop train happens upon the demolished section of track, the construction engineers are going to be on it like a bad smell on a dog pile.

Worst case, the fix for a crater in the middle of a set of tracks means placement of 5 or 6 cubic meters of gravel into a hole; Followed by Replacement of a few sleepers and replacement of a couple of rail sections. All of these materials can be quickly and efficiently transported to the localized sections of track damage by trains and rolling stock converging upon the break from either side of a break. Filling a crater and replacing a few sleepers and rails is a construction operation that requires hour’s worth of labor -- not weeks. In terms of great military engineering feats, repairing a crater in the middle of a rail road track is like snapping ones fingers. Bridging the Dnepr or Dvina; or placing a level 1 or 2 fort in a hex with all the associated bunkers, dugouts, minefields, weapons pits is measured in terms of a few movement points being expended over the course of a single game turn. However, the current system of rear area track demolition results in a break that can’t be repaired for multiple turns.

I don’t think the effects of rear area track damage from very early war Partisan attacks have really been adequately play tested. The implication of Partisan track damage, as I indicated above, is really a two to four turn complete loss in track function. No rail movement or supply passage through the damaged track hexes can occur during this month long effort in trying to get the proper units back to repair breaks. Like I said above, to get the tracks functioning again means a mobile FBD unit has to march back to the damaged track sections slowly on foot; than it needs to repair the damaged section.

In addition, the Partisan damaged rail sections are requiring that the FBD Unit expend a full 3 movement points to repair each hex (assuming it’s a break along Russian or Ukrainian gauge track). This is followed by the FBD unit having to march back to the forward railhead to commence with rail road gauge widening work again. The full 3 movement point’s repair expenditure by FBD units to reconstitute a partisan damaged rail hex represents the same MP expenditure required by the FBD unit to transform track gauge over an entire ten mile stretch of track – as well as gauge conversion of all of the side tracking within that ten mile hex area. In addition, the 3 movement point cost for gauge conversion would also encompasses much of the ballast section and subgrade improvements conducted by German Rail Road Construction engineers of Soviet rail lines in order to increase track support for the larger tonnages the Germans were typically employing with their locomotives and rolling stock. Why is this same 3 MP cost associated with repairing a Partisan damaged rail hex?

Partisan damage reflects a few localized track section breaks therefore the FBD movement point cost for repairing partisan damage should be directly correlated to the level of track damage inflicted upon the tracks. If a ten mile section of track is only damaged 10% by a partisan attack, than perhaps a realistic track repair cost would be the mere passage of an FBD unit through the damaged track hex -- zero additional MPs beyond the terrain cost of the hex itself. Or charge the FBD repair cost a nominal 1-MP to repair.

I would suggest that damaged tracks from partisan attacks only temporarily increase RR movement costs through damaged hexes as well as temporarily reduce the amount of supply tonnage that passes through damaged tracks. The amount of movement point costs and supply tonnage decrease should be directly correlated to the level of damage to the track hex rather than a complete loss of functionality of an entire section of track. Again we are talking about a few localized breaks over a ten mile section. These would be repaired rather quickly. So the delay resultant should be measured in terms of movement point penalties rather than complete loss of track function for weeks at a time.

Given the sometimes unconstructive climate and sensitivity of some posters on this forum, doubtless much of the above will earn me the lable of Nazi Fanboy. [8|] So be it. It’s not going to stop me from expressing an opinion about potential issues.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: kswanson1

Not to belabor this, ...

Well, I will belabor it for you then [:)]

I am now running 1.04.14. It is Feb 42. I just had a single partisan unit pop up. Associated with that single pop-up were ten (10) breaks in three lateral lines and two main lines which disabled 57 rail hexes and isolated three FDB units, none of which is able to reach a break. This isolated all of AG North and about a third of AG Center.

There were nine other partisan units as well, but none of them were able to break both a main line and enough laterals to isolate a section of front. I basically have every main line for a depth of 20 hexes (five units worth) covered by security units on the rails. The major break began 27 hexes from the front and spread from there.

This is getting a bit irritating.

EDIT: Note that no city has ever been red due to lack of garrison and very few have been yellow for long. The partisan plague is not due to insufficient garrisons

[Redmarkus5]

We need an Option to switch partisan attacks off, at least until the developers can really focus on a full overhaul for that feature. I just started a GC vs the AI to test the new beta but can't really do that with crazy partisan units running about.

[Lieste]

Actually worst case for a 'break' is not a few tonnes of gravel, but several thousand tonnes of derailed rolling stock, or a dropped span of a bridge. Neither is easy to fix - moving large numbers of damaged or destroyed wagons and locomotives will require many men or heavy equipment. Bridge replacement can take days/weeks once materials are on hand.

[Redmarkus5]

It would be useful to have some high level stats on how many major partisan rail/road attacks occurred historically, when and their effect, just to benchmark roughly against the game. Does anyone have such?