Hannibal-style Wir 3.2

[K62_]

The Elefant heavy tank destroyer (HTD) becomes available in January 1943. It is a superb mechanical beast and only 2 years later will the Russians have something comparable (the IS-III). However, to the great dismay of any Axis commander, there are only two battalions in the whole Wehrmacht that can use this giant. As though to add to the frustration: you get instead plenty of light tank destroyer (LTD) units. These die easily and are almost useless for offensive purposes (some of them can even be found in your elite SS divisions).

Now, it is a well-known fact that the great Carthaginian relied heavily in his battles upon any War Elephants that he could gather. So why shouldn't we, armchair generals, follow in his footsteps as well?

To my great joy, I have recently discovered that it is possible to convert those pesky LTD battalions, which the Bolsheviks can only laugh at, to use AFV's that inspire fear and respect. Here is how to do it in 5 easy steps:

1. Get rid of any Nashorns you have on the East Front by assigning them to the West. Make sure you have none left in the pools and you're not making any.

2. Switch factories to manual control and produce 100 or so Elefants.

3. Get all your LTD battalions to use small numbers (less than 5) of Marder III's. It is possible, I'll let you figure out how .

4. Switch to computer upgrade control. Check next turn to make sure all your Marder III's got replaced by Elefants.

5. Switch back to manual factory control and keep producing those HTD suckers! You should now be able to field 800-1000 of them easily.

This is, I think, a very good way keep those T-34 and KV hordes out of the Reich in the last years of the war. Hopefully, it should also hlp inflicting a few Cannaes upon their masters .

[Chairman]

Hmm, nice little way to give the russkie a bit of a trouble.
But, sorry to say there is one way in real life that terminated the Elephant and that is the lack of anti infantery weapons wich is not in the game, unless there is a way to give certain "monsters" a second defence value vs infantery??
One thing that will terminate this (ab)use is probobly a house rule.
By the way do you produce anything ells after producing a 100 Elephants a week??

[K62_]

Sorry if I've been a bit confusing, I meant a pool of 100 Elefants (you can build them in 3 months, if you like), not a weekly production. You need to produce more of them later, though, to fill up your batallions.

The Elefant was used initially at Kursk (it was called Ferdinand back then), where it did meet with failure because of its poor anti-infantry capacity. After this battle, it was fitted with "a bow machine gun and a coat of zimmerit halfway up the superstructure", thus repairing this defficiency.

It was later used with success in the Italian campaign; however, because of the initial failure and the comparative success of its rival project, the Tiger, it never got to be mass-produced. The point in WiR, however, is that you can make different decisions based on the historical setting. It was possible after Zitadelle to prefer the Elefant to the Tiger; it just didn't happen.

I'd also like to note that in the later SSI series "Panzer General", where there is implemented a differentiation of soft/hard targets and soft/hard attack, the Elefant also appears and it has very good anti-infantry capacity. I suppose those guys did a bit of research before giving it such stats.

[Denniss]

The Elephant was only built because Ferdinand Porsche thougt he should build the Tiger tanks but his plans for the tank were not used .
But he already built 100 Tracks ( Fahrgestell - don't know exact translation) to be prepared for Tiger production .
As he don't want to throw them away he build a massive tank around one of the most dangerous WW2 AT-Gun (88mm PaK) .
A very slow and very heavy tank but very high firepower - could kill T34 at 2000m and higher if he hits them at this distance .

[thantis]

When used properly, the Elefant was a nasty opponent to come across. Almost useless in offensive actions (due to its slow speed and lack of a turret), it was in its true element on the defensive.

There are accounts of Elefants taking out the heaviest Russian tanks at over 2000m, but its reputation had already been irrevocably tarnished by Kursk.

[screamer]

i did this trick with the tiger 1 all tank production to yiger 1i eventually produced some 7000before endwar

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by K62
Sorry if I've been a bit confusing, I meant a pool of 100 Elefants (you can build them in 3 months, if you like), not a weekly production. You need to produce more of them later, though, to fill up your batallions.

The Elefant was used initially at Kursk (it was called Ferdinand back then), where it did meet with failure because of its poor anti-infantry capacity. After this battle, it was fitted with "a bow machine gun and a coat of zimmerit halfway up the superstructure", thus repairing this defficiency.

It was later used with success in the Italian campaign; however, because of the initial failure and the comparative success of its rival project, the Tiger, it never got to be mass-produced. The point in WiR, however, is that you can make different decisions based on the historical setting. It was possible after Zitadelle to prefer the Elefant to the Tiger; it just didn't happen.

As someone pointed out, the Elefant was slow and turretless, so it was difficult to protect it when engaged with the enemy (armor and infantry) at close range. Its armor was mostly up front, not on the sides and rear (somebody please check the Steel Panthers database for side and read armor real quick, I'm not in Windows/DOS right now). WIR doesn't show these problems, its a strategic level game, but the reality is the Elephant was a purely defensive weapon, unlike the Tiger, which was faster, had a turret, and its side and read armor was as good as its front armor. When used as a defensive weapon the Elephant's importance was in its main cannon, able to hit and kill enemy armor at long range. In this case the weight of all that armor becomes a *problem* not an advantage, because you're killing the enemy before they can get in range to attack you, so the armor becomes a liability. This is why the Nashorn was more "successful" than the Elefant, despite its numbers in WIR. It has the same gun but no armor, thus was quicker and much easier to mass produce, and in a defensive role as a tank destroyer firing at long range, it was just as good as the Elefant. So what you're doing is allowable by the game, but nevertheless not very realistic.

[K62_]

Ed,

You have quite a convincing point of view. I think, however, that the game should rather reflect these deficiencies than forbid the use of the Elefant. If it really was so vulnerable, perhaps its armour value should be much decreased (after all, why should it only reflect thickness?) to the point where it would only contribute half strength in attacks (thus simulating its poor offensive capacity). But let the player decide between the Elefant and the Nashorn.

Screamer,

Oh my God! Where did you put all those Tigers? I suppose you weren't just replacing what you were losing in combat .

[davewolf]

Dangerous area here.

Discussing what was realistic and what wasn't, what so should be allowed or not.

Could end up larger than some might think.

Do a search for old threads. You should find a lot.


:p

[Stefdragon]

Front: 200mm/25dg
Sides: 80mm/30dg
Rear: 80mm/20dg
Top/Bottom: 30mm/86dg
90 produced in April and May, 1943
Crew: 6
Weight: 65 tons
Source) "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two"

Happy Hunting!

[Chairman]

Hmmm, Stefdragon isn´t this the Ferdinand???????

[Stefdragon]

The heading at the top of the page has it listed as the "Sturmgeschutz mit 8.8cm PaK43/2 (Sd Kfz 184)".
Under the bold faced title is a line that states: "Other designations: Ferdinand, Elefant". The index refers both "Ferdinand" and "Elefant" to this same full page with two big pictures of the nasty looking brute.
Is there something I should know about here? I think they are interchangeble names. Although in all fairness under the "Other designations" line is a line that says: "Type: Heavy assault gun/ tank destroyer". Maybe it was called Ferd as an assault gun and
Ela as a tank destroyer? Whatever. At any rate the best advice I can give you is: DON'T STAY IN FRONT OF ONE OF THOSE SUCKERS FOR EVEN A SECOND!

[K62_]

It was called Ferdinand at Kursk, when its only weapon was the 88 mm. After that battle, it was fitted with a machine-gun and a coat of zimmerit (a substance that prevented the attachement of infantry-carried magnetic mines), re-baptized Elefant and sent to Italy. Although I read the memoirs of a Russian general who said he had met Ferdinands on the Kalinin Front in October '43. Perhaps he was confusing them with something else (quite a difficult feat, though).

[Stefdragon]

Originally posted by K62
It was called Ferdinand at Kursk, when its only weapon was the 88 mm. After that battle, it was fitted with a machine-gun and a coat of zimmerit (a substance that prevented the attachement of infantry-carried magnetic mines), re-baptized Elefant and sent to Italy. Although I read the memoirs of a Russian general who said he had met Ferdinands on the Kalinin Front in October '43. Perhaps he was confusing them with something else (quite a difficult feat, though).

So then....notwithstanding the coat of new paint, (har, har) and the machine gun, I would think that the armour stats I posted would be accurate. :rolleyes:

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Stefdragon
At any rate the best advice I can give you is: DON'T STAY IN FRONT OF ONE OF THOSE SUCKERS FOR EVEN A SECOND!

Shouldn't be hard to agree here.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by K62
Ed,

You have quite a convincing point of view. I think, however, that the game should rather reflect these deficiencies than forbid the use of the Elefant.

I never suggested forbidding the Elefant, just recognize its limitations, and then use it in a realistic way. That's just a suggestion for the purists out there though, as opposed to those who believe anything the game lets you do is automatically legitimate. Play the game how you want to, if you want 4,000 Elefants, by all means build them.

If it really was so vulnerable, perhaps its armour value should be much decreased (after all, why should it only reflect thickness?) to the point where it would only contribute half strength in attacks (thus simulating its poor offensive capacity). But let the player decide between the Elefant and the Nashorn.

This is a common statement. WIR is limited in many ways, and that's not going to be fixed. We could have endless debates about how to fudge the numbers to make up for the fact the game doesn't use all the important characteristics of vehicles, like speed, front/side/rear armor, turret or turrectless, fuel consumption, durability, etc. I doubt its possible to get fudged numbers everyone would agree to. We're going to have to wait for WIR3 to see what GG does about vehicle characteristics, it seems.

[MB00]

Any computer game can be searched for flaws or mis-interpretation and mis-use.

As this is now in the public domain...of the club, this could be another project for Armoud.

Significantly reduce the offensive/defensive value of the Elephant in case where "axis initiate" attack with Elephants.

The above does not solve the strategic level problem, but it would somewhat offset it.
Consider:
The elephant is slow.(so was the Tiger)
The elephant armour is heavily weighted to front(not Tiger)
There is no turret...which anyone having played Steel Panthers I or Tigers in the Snow(tactical computer game), would suggest is a significant limitation.(Tiger had turret)

A force of Elephants would still be difficult for Ruskies to attack!
In later war years, this was the main Axis objective - No?

Gaming, reality and fun....have such complex relationships.

Mike B

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Mike B
As this is now in the public domain...of the club, this could be another project for Armoud.

The game WIR is NOT in the public domain, Arnaud had to sign an NDA to get access to the WIR code, and no one else will get that same kind of access (according to Matrix). Since Arnaud has a real job and can only work on WIR part time, no one should expect major improvements to WIR because WIR is a DOS app already flirting with the DOS memory limit, and changing it to a non-DOS app is precisely the thing that Arnaud doesn't have the time to do.

Significantly reduce the offensive/defensive value of the Elephant in case where "axis initiate" attack with Elephants.

There is a rule that lightly armored TDs will only attack at half strength and take half losses. I can't remember what the limit was, its in the readme.txt somewhere.

[Stefdragon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Cogburn


There is a rule that lightly armored TDs will only attack at half strength and take half losses.

Please allow me to speak on this board in defence of seemingly much maligned El. First of all, El's armour in every respect (superstructure from any angle, hull: top and bottom, etc.) was up to almost double that of the Panther 5A that was produced in '43/'44. It was in fact, the hull of a Tiger with 100 mm plates bolted to the front. The Marder 2 and 3 were lightly armoured TD's, not El.
Okay, she didn't have a turret. But the gun was traversed into position using the treads, and the crews trained to do just that. And once she was in position........
THERE WAS NOTHING GOING ANYWHERE!!

Why were so few actually produced? Some of the production dedicated to the Tiger had to be diverted just to produce the ninety chassis that went into production for El in Feb 43'. This was in spite of a shortage in suspension parts and a lack of test runs. I'm sure that AH would have built a heck of a lot more if he could have. As for Kursk... Ferd was the plug that filled the holes in the German lines in the Summer and Fall after Kursk, and was only pulled from the lines in late '43 for overhaul. Eventually going back into service again.

By the way:
What is the name of Darth Vader's wife?........

ELA VADER.... She works in Real Estate......

[K62_]

Originally posted by Stefdragon
First of all, El's armour in every respect (superstructure from any angle, hull: top and bottom, etc.) was up to almost double that of the Panther 5A that was produced in '43/'44. It was in fact, the hull of a Tiger with 100 mm plates bolted to the front.

Also, I think that armour was sloped, making the projectiles bound off from it (unlike the Tiger, for which the idea came too late). What did the Russians have that made such heavy protection necessary? Or, to put it in other way, how could they deal any kind of damage to such a monster (besides using magnetic mines, which should have been eventually rendered ineffective by the zimmerit)?