"Medium Jeep"

[Chief Rudiger]

I'm reading an Operation Order for the 5th Seaforth's from late '44 which states two jeeps towing A/Tk gun, a 22 Set handcart plus two "medium jeeps" were to follow the Bn accross a bridge of assault boats.

Does anyone know what a "Medium Jeep" is? Google hasn't helped me much.

[Lieste]

3/4 ton 'beep' (big jeep) - the slightly larger weapon carrier (etc) version of the standard 1/4 ton 'jeep'
It is in-game btw as the 3/4 ton.

[Chief Rudiger]

Thanks, with that i found the following "Popular Science" article through wikipedia. Check out the Dodge promo drawing split over pages 96 & 97!

http://books.google.com/books?id=-iYDAA ... e&q&f=true

Looking at the payloads stated on wikipedia i don't understand how a little Jeep with a payload of 300kg could pull a 6pdr A/Tk gun of ~1,200 kg (or even a 2pdr of 800kg!) - seems more like a job for the 6 wheeled Beep with the 1,500 kg payload.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dodge_WC-63.jpg

Are payload and towing capacity different?

Other than A/Tk guns what would these Beep "weapons carriers" carry? Just small arms, PIAT and 2" mortar ammunition for the rifle platoons? MMG's weren't part of an Inf Bn's TOE and wouldn't all 3" mortar and 6 pdr A/Tk weapons & amn be carried on those platoon's dedicated (Bren Gun) Carriers and larger A Echelon trucks?

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

Looking at the payloads stated on wikipedia i don't understand how a little Jeep with a payload of 300kg could pull a 6pdr A/Tk gun of ~1,200 kg (or even a 2pdr of 800kg!) - seems more like a job for the 6 wheeled Beep with the 1,500 kg payload.

At least a job for a "bigger" (means more powerful) vehicle.

The text on the google-books page you mentioned actually contains the piece of information you were looking for, on page 94, as that part describes the different 3/4 ton models and backs up your initial assumption:

"Three-quarter ton: 4 x 4, four-models ---- weapons carrier with power winch, command and reconnaissance, carryall, and ambulance. The weapons carrier is a prime mover (towing unit) for the 37-mm anti-tank gun, and also may be a self-propelled 37-mm gun mount as shown in the drawing on page 96.

Two-and-a-half-ton: 6 x 6, two models on long and short wheelbases with and without winches. The long-wheelbase unit is a cargo or personnel vehicle, a 1.5-ton wrecker, or a 750-gallon tank truck. The short-wheelbase unit is a prime mover for the 37-mm anti-aircraft gun, the 40-mm Bofors anti-aircraft gun, the 75mm gun, or the 105-mm howitzer.

Four-ton: 6 x 6, prime mover for 155-mm howitzer (largest gun in triangular division), and the big Quartermaster Corps Wrecker.

Six-ton: 6 x 6, prime mover for 3-inch anti-aircraft Coast Artillery gun and the 90-mm anti-aircraft gun.

Seven-and-a-half-ton: 6 x 6, prime mover for 240-mm howitzer, the 8-inch howitzer, and 155-mm howitzer."

That said (err.. quoted [;)]), the 1/4-ton 4-wheelers (quarter ton, the smallest "Jeep") were not meant to tow AT guns at all, the bigger 3/4-ton 4 wheelers (see picture on page 90) were planned to tow the 37-mm guns. Still, in practice, right before the US entered the war, many units had received the 1/4-ton Jeep (according to Zaloga, eg. on the Philipines --> Zaloga "U.S. Army Anti-Tank Artillery 1941-1945", page 10) to tow the 37mm gun instead, though.

All "bigger" calibre guns (40mm and above) were supposed to be pulled by 6-wheelers. I have seen footage and pictures with 1/4-ton Jeeps towing the M3 37mm AT gun (just like HERE on this pic, this is a replica, though), ie. at Infantry School Ft Benning or during the retreat on the Philipines in 1941, so I guess if some gun crews needed a ride, they often just used whatever was available, even if it meant to end up with an engine breakdown. 57mm guns used in the ET were way heavier though, most likely even too heavy for the 3/4-ton Jeep ("medium" Jeep). The pictures I've seen so far showed 3/4-ton ammo carriers equipping 57mm and 75mm AT guns/crews, I didn't come across a 3/4 actually towing a 57mm, yet.

Anyway, this bit on wiki covering 57mm guns (57 mm Gun M1 entry) is accurate:

Wiki

"Dodge WC-62 / WC-63 6×6 1½ ton trucks were issued as prime movers in place of the 3/4 ton truck used with its predecessor the 37mm."

....

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

Other than A/Tk guns what would these Beep "weapons carriers" carry? Just small arms, PIAT and 2" mortar ammunition for the rifle platoons? MMG's weren't part of an Inf Bn's TOE and wouldn't all 3" mortar and 6 pdr A/Tk weapons & amn be carried on those platoon's dedicated (Bren Gun) Carriers and larger A Echelon trucks?

In theory, the 4-wheeler 3/4 ton was a carryall: troops, ambulance, small arms, mortar rounds, ammo, but it served as a workhorse pulling the 37mm AT gun and/or carried ammo in the main, according to what I've read so far.

And yes, that would be small arms, PIAT or Bazooka rounds, rifles/ammunition, and maybe even mortars. My guess is they used halftracks for the mortars, though.
I doubt that 6 pdrs (US derivate: the 57mm M1 AT gun) were pulled by medium jeeps.

[Ossian]

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

I'm reading an Operation Order for the 5th Seaforth's from late '44 which states two jeeps towing A/Tk gun, a 22 Set handcart plus two "medium jeeps" were to follow the Bn accross a bridge of assault boats.

Does anyone know what a "Medium Jeep" is? Google hasn't helped me much.

5th Seaforth's? Interesting. I'm gearing up to make some Combat Mission maps covering the 5th Seaforth's in Normandy. Can I ask where the operations order you're referring to comes from, is it from 'Battalion' by Alister Borthwick or another source?

[Chief Rudiger]

ORIGINAL: Ossian

5th Seaforth's? Interesting. I'm gearing up to make some Combat Mission maps covering the 5th Seaforth's in Normandy. Can I ask where the operations order you're referring to comes from, is it from 'Battalion' by Alister Borthwick or another source?

Yes, in an appendix.