Reopening an old topic

[PeeDeeAitch]

(well, not really, but you get the idea)

I have been playing around recently with opening moves for the Germans. I realize the "Riga Gambit" of shipping infantry into that port will soon no longer be viable, so I have stopped that. But beyond this I have begun to think about the game in different ways than before. I tried a couple of times to send two extra panzer corps to the south - once it paid of well, once it did not, but beyond this I have begun to rethink a lot of what is "common practice" in games.

For instance, I am trying a game using a modified tactic brought up before - cutting the rail lines in the south but not expecting the Lvov pocket to hold. Most of the 1st Panzer is still north of Lvov (I did cut to the border with one tank division), and the full strength of that group will be focused to strike on the following turns. This is in part not to cut down the gamey bits (I am all about paradropping the 7th Panzer onto Gorky in Sept 1941), but rather to change the game up and play it.

Really, this is about no longer trying to win the game on the first turn, but instead make the Soviet player think, and more importantly react to what I am doing. I think the 1st turn (and the 2nd, 3rd, and maybe the 12th) needs to be re-evaluated by the German players. The rock-paper-scissors we have learned about in the past 9 months can easily become stale.

Change it up as the Germans - scare your opponent so he says "oh crap" when he opens the turns.

[delatbabel]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch
... (I am all about paradropping the 7th Panzer onto Gorky in Sept 1941) ...

And I'd land the 1st Guards flying Tank Corps in Berlin the same day!

[sveint]

I'd love to see a "free setup" scenario. The Axis and Soviets each get a turn 0 to set up their units (and unlimited AP). Would make for some interesting games.

[Panama]

Nice tank. Er, airplane. Uhm...tankplane?

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch
Really, this is about no longer trying to win the game on the first turn, but instead make the Soviet player think, and more importantly react to what I am doing. I think the 1st turn (and the 2nd, 3rd, and maybe the 12th) needs to be re-evaluated by the German players. The rock-paper-scissors we have learned about in the past 9 months can easily become stale.

Change it up as the Germans - scare your opponent so he says "oh crap" when he opens the turns.

So far, people has focused on coming up with opening gambits that pocket the most Soviet troops starting at turn 1. I think this strategy is too "greedy" and might be harmful because:

* The RKKA is not really "destroyed", just a pile of units are put out of the board. They'll come back and will grow up to strength very quickly.
* Trying to create tight pockets all the way to Leningrad, Moscow and the Donbass slows down considerably the Wehrmacht.
* In July the RKKA rebounds very strongly: by the time AGC is ready to cross the Dnepr at Vitebsk - Mogilev (turns 3 or 4) the soviet has been able to shift around RKKA's second echelon (16th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd armies) and probably has covered very well the western Dvina and the approaches to Smolensk. Besides that, a substantial third echelon will be already forming up west of Rzhev and Vyazma.
* There's nothing worth fighting in the Ukraine west of Kiev, Cherkassy, Krivoi Rog and Nikolaiev. The most sound plan is to conduct an elastic defense all the way from the Pripyat marshes to the Black Sea. The Lvov megapocket - and subsidiary pockets involving Southern Front right flank - actually plays in favor of the soviets, since it is possible to bog down AGS for a long time (five or six turns) far away from the four cities I mention at the beginning.
* In the north and center, one usually needs to conduct a close, active defense. A too "Fabian" strategy there will probably put German armies into striking range of Leningrad and Moscow too soon.
* Savvy Soviet players will use to their advantage coastal cities with ports. These are excellent places to make a stand (having a port, means that if the units don't shatter they will rout and evacuate eastwards by sea). Fortifying places as Odessa, Nikolaiev, Tallinn and the Crimea can tie up substantial Axis forces for extended periods of time.

The "pocket all you can" strategy can play into Soviet hands quite easily by making your opponent to divert too many resources to "secondary" adventures and having her to lose focus.

In my experience with the Soviet side, late August, September and early October is the really critical time in 1941. That's usually when my opponent has been able to put into the line his infantry, and his logistics are reasonable. I'm far more afraid of my opponent making a huge pocket in late September than in late July since I won't get back those divisions until 1942... not to mention late November, when you don't get them back for free at all.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch
Really, this is about no longer trying to win the game on the first turn, but instead make the Soviet player think, and more importantly react to what I am doing. I think the 1st turn (and the 2nd, 3rd, and maybe the 12th) needs to be re-evaluated by the German players. The rock-paper-scissors we have learned about in the past 9 months can easily become stale.

Change it up as the Germans - scare your opponent so he says "oh crap" when he opens the turns.

So far, people has focused on coming up with opening gambits that pocket the most Soviet troops starting at turn 1. I think this strategy is too "greedy" and might be harmful because:

* The RKKA is not really "destroyed", just a pile of units are put out of the board. They'll come back and will grow up to strength very quickly.* Trying to create tight pockets all the way to Leningrad, Moscow and the Donbass slows down considerably the Wehrmacht.
* In July the RKKA rebounds very strongly: by the time AGC is ready to cross the Dnepr at Vitebsk - Mogilev (turns 3 or 4) the soviet has been able to shift around RKKA's second echelon (16th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd armies) and probably has covered very well the western Dvina and the approaches to Smolensk. Besides that, a substantial third echelon will be already forming up west of Rzhev and Vyazma.
* There's nothing worth fighting in the Ukraine west of Kiev, Cherkassy, Krivoi Rog and Nikolaiev. The most sound plan is to conduct an elastic defense all the way from the Pripyat marshes to the Black Sea. The Lvov megapocket - and subsidiary pockets involving Southern Front right flank - actually plays in favor of the soviets, since it is possible to bog down AGS for a long time (five or six turns) far away from the four cities I mention at the beginning.
* In the north and center, one usually needs to conduct a close, active defense. A too "Fabian" strategy there will probably put German armies into striking range of Leningrad and Moscow too soon.
* Savvy Soviet players will use to their advantage coastal cities with ports. These are excellent places to make a stand (having a port, means that if the units don't shatter they will rout and evacuate eastwards by sea). Fortifying places as Odessa, Nikolaiev, Tallinn and the Crimea can tie up substantial Axis forces for extended periods of time.

The "pocket all you can" strategy can play into Soviet hands quite easily by making your opponent to divert too many resources to "secondary" adventures and having her to lose focus.

In my experience with the Soviet side, late August, September and early October is the really critical time in 1941. That's usually when my opponent has been able to put into the line his infantry, and his logistics are reasonable. I'm far more afraid of my opponent making a huge pocket in late September than in late July since I won't get back those divisions until 1942... not to mention late November, when you don't get them back for free at all.

Now this brings up an excellent point. The old debate of whether to gain ground or destroy the enemy's field forces is still being fought elsewhere in the forums, but this brings up the question of what is the best way to destroy those forces. As BG points out, surrounding the enemy takes time and the UNITS come back anyway; the only permanent loss to the enemy is the loss of the CONTENTS of those units. So is it better to take the tine to surround the enemy and get (almost) every last cook and orderly or is it better to "hound" them forcing successive routs while steadily moving forward?

This is especially significant for the Lvov pocket: not only does it take time to reduce the huge pocket, it usually has an impact to the path the RR repair units take.


Interesting ... [:)]

[carlkay58]

I have always felt that it is better to destroy every last bit of them. I have been doing some thinking about it though and I have a few things to try out as the Axis player to see how it would work - but my thrust is still to destroy the units. The Soviets will have to replace the manpower and equipment from scratch and that means that they will also have to train the soldiers back up with experience - that is when the Soviets really see the effects. When a shell division returns, there is no experience and it takes a few months to train them up to the proper experience level so they do not just 'vanish' when the Axis attacks them.

[pompack]

OTOH [:D]

When you inflict casualties by attack and pursuit, many of the casualties are "disabled" and return later. As I understand the surrender rules, all casualties become "captured" and do not return. I think I am beginning to lean back the other way in favor of pockets.


However, this does not necessarily apply to the mass pockets on turn 1 as PDH pointed out (indirectly [:)]) in the OP. For the Lvov pocket itself, it may be much more effective to cut the rail lines and push forward aiming at pocketing them later and much further east.

Perhaps it's less stressful just to play the Russians and not worry about all of these painful decisions [8|]

[Balou]

...especially significant for the Lvov pocket: not only does it take time to reduce the huge pocket, it usually has an impact to the path the RR repair units take.

Correct. And it's the reason why some people came up with the idea to start the AGS northern RR not from Lvov, but from Chernovtsy - and heading towards Vinnitsa. One looses 2 weeks while moving, but it really pays off from what I've seen.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
I have always felt that it is better to destroy every last bit of them. I have been doing some thinking about it though and I have a few things to try out as the Axis player to see how it would work - but my thrust is still to destroy the units. The Soviets will have to replace the manpower and equipment from scratch and that means that they will also have to train the soldiers back up with experience - that is when the Soviets really see the effects. When a shell division returns, there is no experience and it takes a few months to train them up to the proper experience level so they do not just 'vanish' when the Axis attacks them.

Experience levels raise very quickly when the unit elements are way below the National Moral, so the divisions are rebuilt really quick to what they were originally: mediocre combat units when compared with their German counterparts. A few months? Hardly a few weeks (say 3 or 4). And there's really no problem replacing equipment at all: armaments factories will crank out fabulous amounts of equipment while those pockets are destroyed 500 miles away.

[mmarquo]

I completely agree with the concept of not isolating and destroying Soviet troops until after October 1941. They come back 4 - 27 turns later; all one is doing is displacing them eastward; and any units which shatter or surrender only serve to increase the partisan pool. And it takes time to reduce the pockets; it can take more than 2 or 3 moves to reduce the southern Russian/Ukranian pockets; as a matter of fact in my current game is turn 7 and I still have Soviet units wandering around my opponent's rear wreaking havoc. That is the Axis dilemma: destroy Soviet units or take Russian geography - it is very hard to do both. There are no point for the former, as for the latter, it is how the game is won.
 
Marquo

[PeeDeeAitch]

I still think that isolating the south, say on turns 2-4 is not only good but a wise policy. Trucks lost for the enemy, surrendered manpower, and freedom of movement are the result when this happens. However, I no longer think this needs to occur on the opening turn (or if it does, it allows a better reaction from the Soviets. In no way am I saying "no pockets" in the opening moves, however, the creation of the vast Lvov pocket, etc often dictates that units are out of position for later moves. Realize that a large pocket on turn 3 is just as good (and given the nature of the defender perhaps even better) than a perfect turn 1 pocket.

Also, do not underestimate the reaction of a human player to well crafted later turn moves in 1941. The Soviet expects to see a lot of nasty when they open their turn 1, when they see it later on it hurts far more.

As Bletchley_Geek pointed out above, the most hay can be made oft times in the latter months of the campaign - do not shoot your bolt too early, and do not allow yourself to bogged down chasing the chimera of the perfect opening. Instead, realize there are multiple turns to harm the Soviets in 1941.

[Flaviusx]

The danger here, of course, is if you don't start pocketing early, it will become harder and harder to make pockets in the future as the Red Army mushrooms and forms ever deeper defenses.

That being said, I've seen Andy pull off a delayed Lvov pocket by striking for Proskurov and cutting the rail lines without making the pocket on turn 1. The Sovs can't evacuate the salient fast enough between the cut rail lines and reduced turn 1 movement rates, and the German gulps down the lot a bit later while moving further east faster. So there is something to this idea about timing pockets correctly.

[Commanderski]

I was just looking at the Historical line mod ( 8 dec'41) and to get that far in a lot of places, especially in the South you would have to go for territory more than encircle or you'll never get that far.

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The danger here, of course, is if you don't start pocketing early, it will become harder and harder to make pockets in the future as the Red Army mushrooms and forms ever deeper defenses.

That being said, I've seen Andy pull off a delayed Lvov pocket by striking for Proskurov and cutting the rail lines without making the pocket on turn 1. The Sovs can't evacuate the salient fast enough between the cut rail lines and reduced turn 1 movement rates, and the German gulps down the lot a bit later while moving further east faster. So there is something to this idea about timing pockets correctly.

I think FlaviusX has hit the nail on the head here. The real danger for the Germans is those horrible deep defences, sometimes 4 or five units deep, that burn off MP's while you are desperately trying to outflank the Soviets somewhere, anywhere!!! The delayed pocket looks interesting that is mentioned...I'll look into that.

I have been playing my brother, and he caused me all sorts of problems in the Lvov pocket by running into the mountains with a shed full of units, and it took weeks to get them all, but on the whole I am a fan of the Lvov pocket strategy. If they surrender while they are isolated, they are not coming back, only the shell of the unit will turn up 10-25 turns later, and it will need filling up from 0% TOE.

(I've never used the Riga Gambit by the way....far too gamey for my personnal taste.)

[Q-Ball]

Striking toward Proskurov wipes out the old Stalin line fortifications, which can be a pain in the butt turns 2 and 3. You can also gobble-up a bunch of Fortified Zones, which are free POWs.

This can be done with either sending a 2nd Panzer Corps down there, or a delayed Lvov pocket.

The one thing a first-turn Lvov pocket does though is get the Romanians moving a turn sooner, which is helpful

Reducing the pocket takes awhile, but ultimately you don't need all of 17th Army to do it. Those units aren't going anywhere, using Axis Allies mostly is a good idea.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Remember, a turn 2 or even turn 3 delayed pocket allows the frozen infantry (and later the Slovaks) to help reduce the pocket. In my latest attempt, I sent 1 panzer div to jumpstart the Romanians, but made the pocket breakable. I am not sure of the effectiveness of this (the pocket was closed turn 3, wiped out turn 4), but it was different.

[marcpennington]

I've used the "partial pocketing" opening now in two PBEM games, both sucesfuly--- one Road to Kiev and one GC.

Essentially, I open by driving one panzer corps towards Rovno (usually taking it), the other one advances to Tarnopol, with one panzer division continuing south from there to cut the railways further south and to activate the Rumanians before falling back to the city itself. That leaves all the rail lines into the Lwov pocket cut, as the Rumanians already are severing the one in the extreme south with their ZOC. Further, the panzers can usually keep their flanks protected by breaking a couple divisions into regiments. On subsequent turns, that leaves the option of either going due south to seal the pocket on turn 2, or (the option I've used in both cases) manuevering one panzer corps in a generally south easterly direction to link up with 11th Army forces in the vicinity of the Dnester on turn 3 (while the other two panzer corps keep the drive going towards Kiev and simultaneously sever various key rail junctions further east, dooming the Lwov pocket even more...). Despite the pocket being technically open, I don't think the Soviet player ever has a real chance of getting the troops out--- in the one instance where my opponent reinforced the gap to try and keep it open, it just led to a slightly delayed but much bigger pocket in the end.

The real advantage to this strategy, I see, is that it allows the Germans to both eliminate a sizable number of Red Army troops, while keeping the forward momentum going towards Kiev and points east. Most importantly, it can be done without the need to divert any troops from Army Group Center. And in general, it seems a fairly "safe" strategy, though turns 2 and 3 will inevitably require a fair bit of improvisation, as well as the feeling of pocketing on a shoestring.

[Q-Ball]

This is a good debate. I used to be in the camp of "Turn 1 Lvov Pocket or Bust", but I don't think it's necessary.

What is necessary is having a plan to cut all the rail lines to the Lvov pocket. Sending a single unit down to the Romanian border frees the Romanians, which is good, and also cuts all the rail, but you don't need to plan on holding it. Just keeping them pinned is all.

I am now in the camp of diverting some of that strength we used to go SOUTH, to go EAST instead; Rovno is good, or Proskurov, but point being, to scoop up the STALIN LINE forts, and displace more Red units.

Even without the troops in Lvov and Kovel pockets, SW Front still has alot of units, and you have to begin to address that quickly.

Here is one scenario (NOTE: Don't sweat the HQ placements; this is a test).

If you are going to cut the rail lines to Lvov, you need to get a few hexes south of Tarnopol. If you go that far, maybe you may as well go to the Romanian Border.

Other units can push toward PROSKUROV. Note this "Borrows" a Panzer Corps from Pz Gp 2; a move I am in favor of

If you throw-in another Pz Cp, you can easily take ROVNO this turn, and pin more units against the marshes with no rail access. That pretty much dooms any mobile units.

I think getting through the Stalin Line forts is key, and really helps later on.

SIDE NOTE: The KOVEL pocket can be formed using only Infantry, and the CAV DIVISION. I see no reason NOT to do this, it bags a high-quality Mech Corps and some infantry. Can anyone think of a reason NOT to do this?

If you have an interesting idea, please post a map

[marcpennington]

Indeed an interesting discussion.

I disagree on the Kovel pocket though, as by focusing deliberate infantry attacks on the units, one can quickly rout the formations on turn 1, while at the same time allowing the infantry from Sixth Army to get much nearer to Tarnopol and protect the inner flank against the Lwow "pocket"--- as well as providing flank protection to the panzers advancing to Proskoruv or Rovno, and being in a much better position on turn 2 to drive east.

In addition, I think the Kovel pocket require at least some units from Panzer Group 2, which I'm a bit hesitant to commit, as I really do think AGC needs all it's initial units.

The third reason relates to the Bialystock pocket, and the exception rule that units will surrender if they don't have a valid town hex within 21 hexes to rout to. The units from the Kovel area tend to rout to locations that units from the Bialystock pocket would also be able to rout to, hence filling up the locations faster, and causing one to reach the threshold where one can force the units in the Bialystock pocket to surrender on turn 1 a bit quicker... Conversely, I don't think there's any way one can fill up or capture all the potential rout locations from the Kovel pocket, so forcing it to surrender on turn 1 is not an option.