Very close to buying...

[flibby]

Just one thing is holding me back...

After playing the demo and playing COTA and HTTR briefly in the past, one thing that struck me is that most of the assaults just seemed to be frontal, or at least 'straight' assaults, albeit co-ordinated with different arms etc.

I can see that skill is required to know where to attack etc, but i've not got the idea of a great strategic commander such as you would find in WITE for example, whereby you can encircle, envelop and isolate your enemies at your behest.

Is it simply the case that combat at this level and at this time was more about straightforward frontal assault leaving the more grandiose tactics to the strategic level - or am i just playing it wrong?

Many thanks!

[Perturabo]

It probably depends on scenario. Even if there isn't a scenario that would provide conditions for such manoeuvres, you can always make a scenario where they are possible.

[alcamatraz]

My own units have been cut off and killed many times, since I play badly. I would say that well positioned forces make it harder to do this, but it's definitely possible.

[flibby]

So in general it was militarily standard that manoeuvre warfare was more or less on a larger than operational scale?

[rwenstrup]

This is a great game...if you play with delayed order reaction it is amazing how real the feel is to battlefield command....

[Phoenix100]

I've posted before about my frustrations trying to encircle, to no avail. What I've been told, in the past, is that units can have enough supply (basics, anyway) to last four days or so anyway if cut off. maybe not that much ammo etc , depending on how fiercely you attack them. But in almost all scenarios in HTTR, COTA and BFTB it's extremely difficult to really cut supply lines for more than a full 4 days. I've never done it. I've griped about the supply chains getting through over very rough ground, and I think this may be something to be looked at for the patch. Not sure. I think there was agreement that the AI manages to resupply in circs where that wouldn't happen in RL. Not sure, since the discussions got very technical - all about push pulling and basing etc. But even if it weren't the case that the chain could use rough ground near to roads, then you would still be pushed to cut off all obvious legit routes in for a long enough length of time for it to work. You can demoralise by attacking from many fronts, but harder to actually cut off, I think, for long enough to force surrenders. I tried it most with the big COTA scenarios involving the Italian attacks on the Greeks. there you have time and space to let them run into a pocket. But it still didn't work. they always got supply after a couple of days. Of a nine day scenario it would take me 5 days to set up an encirclement, if I was lucky. So not enough time left for it to work. So, generally, I'd say, yes, it was bigger scale that you could do this kind of thing, maybe.

On the other hand, attacking round the back and in less obvious ways certainly does work wonders (without trying anything so grand as to cut off his supply). So I had great success in Hofen by sending a German battalion (the 752 VGs) round into the woods in the north, to attack his arty and then on into Muntzenich. Got decisive victories like that. And in We Fight and Die Here had success sending - during the very first night - the Holz recon group plus most of KG Kuhlmann (ie, nearly everything you're given at the beginning) round the bottom via Schoppen and up to past Oberwaywertz to cut off all his re-inforcements and hinder his arty (which arrive at the top of the map there) before starting frontal assaults with my own reinforcements on Dom Butgenbach etc. If you just go straight for the Dom then you end up bogged down and losing, because he has so much arty available. And that's manouever warfare, surely? On a small scale. Very rewarding and engrossing, anyway. Easier to try that kind of thing - in most scenarios in BFTB - when playing the germans, I think. They had the big need to move.
You should buy it!

[johndoesecond]

ORIGINAL: flibby

Just one thing is holding me back...

After playing the demo and playing COTA and HTTR briefly in the past, one thing that struck me is that most of the assaults just seemed to be frontal, or at least 'straight' assaults, albeit co-ordinated with different arms etc.

I can see that skill is required to know where to attack etc, but i've not got the idea of a great strategic commander such as you would find in WITE for example, whereby you can encircle, envelop and isolate your enemies at your behest.

Is it simply the case that combat at this level and at this time was more about straightforward frontal assault leaving the more grandiose tactics to the strategic level - or am i just playing it wrong?

Many thanks!

You of course can manoeuvre and attack in that way, which is something I try to do regularly, it there's time, space, terrain conditions and reasons to do it.

From my experience, the AI playing as opponent make this kind of attempts, again, providing there are conditions for that.

[Pawsy]

I think you misunderstand the manoeuverist approach? Its not simply about manoeuvering or encircling. Its much more and its applied from the section upwards. Remember a manoeuverist approach is not quite historical for this period although of course good commanders did show such approaches but low quality units often preformed badly because of poor leadership. In the game this is modeled by orders delay and the quality of the commander and staff. During this period the capture of ground was emphasized. Then and today commanders are necessarily constrained by unit or formation boundaries to orchestrate the operation. Try moving your units down one road in the game and see them stall as units block the way whilst refueling.

manoeuvrist approach
The manoeuvrist approach applies strength against weakness (asymmetric warfare, you attack his infantry with armour) by direct and indirect ways and means against the moral component of an opponent’s fighting power. Your arty suppresses and attrits the enemy, you exhaust enemy units keeping yours rested. Speed and tempo in combination to achieve shock and surprise. You take (calculated risk) by using a fast road route to gain advantage. You might defeat, disrupt or neutralize an opponent through deception. Feign strength in one area attack in another, synchronize your attack to draw of enemy units in the opposite direction to your main effort. You act quicker than the enemy and achieve local superiority by withdrawing your screen to draw the enemy in to your killing area. Direct and indirect forms of attack are not mutually exclusive and any operation is likely to contain elements of both. Attrition should achieve results that are disproportionately greater than the resources applied.

Above all it calls for an attitude of mind in which originality and producing the unexpected are combined with a ruthless determination to succeed! As you can see although denying the enemy his supplies could be one of the means of attacking his will to resist it would be only one of a combination of affects on him that brings about his defeat.

[Phoenix100]

I see. I've a long way to go, I think....

[Pawsy]

Sorry hope that didnt seem like a flame :-S

One aspect often forgotten is what AM thinking can have on your own forces. For example in the Eisnborne scenario I use and engineer unit to rebuild the bridge in the south. By day 2 I get a message that its complete and supply routes etc are being recalculated in my favor. Thus I have increased my own morale cohesion through better supply in relation to the scenario start conditions. Now whether that has a huge affect or not I dont know but I give myself a tick in the box for having thought of it and the game for allowing me to do it. Whilst the victory points are one measure of victory I dont believe they are an absolute. Its after all a simulation and I can extrapolate. Some so called victory's have seen my own forces so badly damaged that they were no longer capable of combat operations and would have required extensive reconstitution.

[Phoenix100]

No. Didn't seem like a flame at all. It was thought provoking. And I certainly have a long way to go - I meant it - since, when I'm playing it always feels that I have niether the time nor forces to come up with anything quite so sophisticated. It's probably a matter of trying to be less reactive. Not sure. Great that the game can still be interesting like this though, many years after starting playing the series.

[Major SNAFU_M]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

I've posted before about my frustrations trying to encircle, to no avail. What I've been told, in the past, is that units can have enough supply (basics, anyway) to last four days or so anyway if cut off. maybe not that much ammo etc , depending on how fiercely you attack them. But in almost all scenarios in HTTR, COTA and BFTB it's extremely difficult to really cut supply lines for more than a full 4 days. I've never done it. I've griped about the supply chains getting through over very rough ground, and I think this may be something to be looked at for the patch. Not sure. I think there was agreement that the AI manages to resupply in circs where that wouldn't happen in RL. Not sure, since the discussions got very technical - all about push pulling and basing etc. But even if it weren't the case that the chain could use rough ground near to roads, then you would still be pushed to cut off all obvious legit routes in for a long enough length of time for it to work. You can demoralise by attacking from many fronts, but harder to actually cut off, I think, for long enough to force surrenders. I tried it most with the big COTA scenarios involving the Italian attacks on the Greeks. there you have time and space to let them run into a pocket. But it still didn't work. they always got supply after a couple of days. Of a nine day scenario it would take me 5 days to set up an encirclement, if I was lucky. So not enough time left for it to work. So, generally, I'd say, yes, it was bigger scale that you could do this kind of thing, maybe.

On the other hand, attacking round the back and in less obvious ways certainly does work wonders (without trying anything so grand as to cut off his supply). So I had great success in Hofen by sending a German battalion (the 752 VGs) round into the woods in the north, to attack his arty and then on into Muntzenich. Got decisive victories like that. And in We Fight and Die Here had success sending - during the very first night - the Holz recon group plus most of KG Kuhlmann (ie, nearly everything you're given at the beginning) round the bottom via Schoppen and up to past Oberwaywertz to cut off all his re-inforcements and hinder his arty (which arrive at the top of the map there) before starting frontal assaults with my own reinforcements on Dom Butgenbach etc. If you just go straight for the Dom then you end up bogged down and losing, because he has so much arty available. And that's manouever warfare, surely? On a small scale. Very rewarding and engrossing, anyway. Easier to try that kind of thing - in most scenarios in BFTB - when playing the germans, I think. They had the big need to move.
You should buy it!

First, to the OP, and most importantly - Buy it! I was nervous about how it would measure up to TOAW and I am very pleased that I made the decision to buy this game. It hits a perfect sweet spot for me.

I wanted to comment on phoenix's comment about re-supply over rough ground. I don't want to assume what you have or haven't read, but recall the mule and human supply trains in the mountains of Italy as a counterpoint. We have to remember that these men were faced with death and worse, and they knew that their buddies on the front line had it even worse and would die if they didn't get those supplies. I think we often underestimate the amount of superhuman effort put forth in the face of the horrors these men faced. They simply attempted and accomplished things that most of us, far removed and in safe, comfortable settings, conclude could not be done, and yet they were time and again.

I also recall reading where a supply column showed up at a CCA HQ to the total surprise of the HQ staff because they were sure they were cut off. The supply column hadn't seen a soul en-route. But it turned out they were trapped at the HQ because they were cut off after they arrived - I can't recall the reference, darn it.

Information was very limited during this time period. I think we often have a problem envisioning this now, when we have perhaps too much information at our finger tips.

Food for thought.

[Major SNAFU_M]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

<snip>It's probably a matter of trying to be less reactive. Not sure. <snip>

Always try your hardest to make the OPFOR dance to your tune. Having said that I struggle mightily with accomplishing it with this game. I've only had it for a few months and am still learning many, many tricks.