92 Flieger Regiment Info Needed

[sweeteye]

I am searching for information on the 92. Flieger-Regiment (ad hoc regiment of Luftwaffe anti-aircraft and other ground troops). I'm working on an OOB for the Battle of Nancy...have most of the information I need except for this one regiment. Anyone know of a source for information or even how I might set up this regiment in generic fashion? Also could use information on Fallschirm-Jäger-Ersatz-und Ausbildungs- 3. Regiment (airborne infantry replacement and training regiment)although there is a stock OOB for a parachute regiment I could convert over.

[sweeteye]

After searching the internet for several days with no success I have finally given up on locating the information. The only information I could find is that the 92nd had a staff unit and three battalions. After looking at a stock flak battalion I patterned the 92nd's battalions after that and added a few Luftwaffe infantry companies to the regiment..Also patterned the 3rd parachute regiment after a stock parachute regiment. I have completed the OOB's for both the Germans and the United States and have calculated the total personnel strengths for both.

United States 27,395 personnel
Germany 19,753 personnel


Here is the OOB I am using although the scenario's OOB is broken down to the company level and includes artillery,engineer and other units.I am ready to determine the objectives and place the units on the map.

U.S. forces

U.S. XII Corps - Major General Manton Eddy

4th Armored Division - Major General John S. Wood
Combat Command A
Combat Command B
Combat Command R

35th Infantry Division - Major General Paul W. Baade
134th Infantry Regiment
137th Infantry Regiment
320th Infantry Regiment

80th Infantry Division - Major General Horace L. McBride
317th Infantry Regiment
318th Infantry Regiment
319th Infantry Regiment

[edit] German forces

XXXXVII. Panzerkorps - General der Panzertruppen Heinrich Freiherr von Lüttwitz

3. Panzergrenadierdivision - Generalmajor Hans Hecker
8. Panzergrenadier-Regiment
29. Panzergrenadier-Regiment

553. Grenadierdivision - (later Volksgrenadierdivision) - Generalmajor Johannes Bruhn
1119. Grenadier-Regiment
1120. Grenadier-Regiment
1121. Grenadier-Regiment

104. Panzergrenadier-Regiment (detached from 15. Panzergrenadierdivision)

Fallschirm-Jäger-Ersatz-und Ausbildungs- 3. Regiment (airborne infantry replacement and training regiment)

92. Flieger-Regiment (ad hoc regiment of Luftwaffe anti-aircraft and other ground troops)

[808et32]

My father was member of the 92nd Flieger Reg & was captured by US (Patton's) troops outside of Nancy in the Fall of 44. Don't know much about the battle(s), Dad only spoke about entire war experience only once or twice my entire life. I do know his section of the 92 was assigned to artillery; he also mentioned out of his company/group? of 30, only he & 2 others made it. Recently I received his Intl Red Cross POW paperwork. Thrill for me as I am holding papers written by my Dad's hand when he was 18. Oddly enough, and I just realized the connection, he died in '92.

[sweeteye]

Pleasure to talk to you.My father also was captured in 44. He past away in 2007. My father also was very quiet about his experience until his last years.He did make a trip to Germany/Belgium in the 90s.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

sweeteye,

Have you ever interacted with a forum member named Goodguy?

You might want to look him up, and shoot him a PM requesting help with this.

He's pretty good with WW2 German OOB work.

[sweeteye]

Being I am so new around this forum and game I am not familiar with him.I will take note of this and try to contact him. I would like to have the correct units for the 92nd. Going to have to release an updated version after the new patch comes out and would be nice to have the OOB corrected.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: sweeteye

Being I am so new around this forum and game I am not familiar with him.I will take note of this and try to contact him. I would like to have the correct units for the 92nd. Going to have to release an updated version after the new patch comes out and would be nice to have the OOB corrected.

Don't be concerned about being a newb. When I showed up and started doing North Africa scenarios for Conquest of the Aegean, about the only folks that responded to my queries for info were from PG. Count yourself lucky in that regard. At least you have an audience that's interested in your work!

[808et32]

A few more memories. Dad was Austrian and a pilot. Drafted/joined at 16 in 1942, never flew in combat (as far as I know) as there were more pilots than planes/fuel available.

Also, does anybody know if the 92 Flieger-Reg was in North Africa at the end of Rommel's run in 1942? I thought Dad mentioned it once, but again, I never asked, he seldom told.

And lastly, he proudly became an American citizen in 1986 when my daughter, his first grandchild, was born. After 30 years of filing every January at the Post Office as a legal 'alien' (yes, we all got a big kick out of calling him that) he knew it was time.

Accepting a former combatant as one of their own is another reason which makes this country great.

I am proud to be an American.

[sweeteye]

Myself I have no idea about the regiment being in North Africa.You might try sifting through some detailed orders of battle for that campaign if you can find them.

[808et32]

Thank you for the responses sweeteye. And the flood of memories. I came across this forum while searching for photos of the 92 F-R. With everyone posting everything these days, and the history of the WW II German film teams, it is inevitable that pictures of Dad in uniform will pop up.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: sweeteye

After searching the internet for several days with no success I have finally given up on locating the information. The only information I could find is that the 92nd had a staff unit and three battalions. After looking at a stock flak battalion I patterned the 92nd's battalions after that and added a few Luftwaffe infantry companies to the regiment..Also patterned the 3rd parachute regiment after a stock parachute regiment. I have completed the OOB's for both the Germans and the United States and have calculated the total personnel strengths for both.

United States 27,395 personnel
Germany 19,753 personnel


92. Flieger-Regiment (ad hoc regiment of Luftwaffe anti-aircraft and other ground troops)

I didn't have much time, but a quick check of some of my files confirms 3 battalions.

Now, for the size, composition/type of weapons: The Flieger-Regimenter were not ad-hoc regiments, and - most notably - they did not comprise of AA-units or "other" Luftwaffe troops.

These units were training units that received the same (boot camp) training as regular Army Infantry units.
Tasks:

1) Basic (infantry) training
2) Pool of soldiers for further deployment/training (filtering out potential pilots who were then moved to the flight schools)
3) Security unit on base/site (usually a Fliegerhorst -> military airfield).

The Regiment was based at and part of Fliegerhorst Toul, which is not too far from Nancy (~10 miles west of Nancy), and served as replacement unit for Kampfgeschwader 53. The Fallschirm-Jäger-Ersatz-und Ausbildungs-Regiment 3 (Paratrooper Replacement and Training Regiment) was based at Toul, too.
More infos tomorrow.

[sweeteye]

Thanks for the info...looking forward to hearing more....

[GoodGuy]

Btw...
According to Tessin, the
The Fallschirm-Jäger-Ersatz-und Ausbildungs-Regiment 3 had 4 battalions, when it was established in April (in Verdun, France) 1944:

I. Bn: Coy 1-5
II. Bn: Coy 6-10
III.Bn: Coy 11-15
IV. Bn: Coy 16-19

EDIT: The following training units were also part of the Regiment: a Signal-training Coy, a medical-training Coy and an Artillery Training Battery.

The entire 4. Btn was transformed to a "Convalescent" Btn in August 1944, means its troops were in the process of recovering from wounds or illnesses. Question is, which Btns had been committed to the Nancy sector, and whether the 4th Bn saw any fighting at all.

According to files owned by a "Lexikon der Wehrmacht"-member the Regiment's II. battalion (also known as "Kampfgruppe BLOCH") was committed to actions at Schijndel (Holland) around October, the III. Btn was definetly committed to Nancy area. After its Bns had been spread and committed at "hotspots" to bolster or relief other units, the Regiment was reunited in January 1945.

Question is, where was the I. (and the IV.) Btn in September, plus: was the II. Bn in transfer to Holland in September already, or did it participate in the Battle of Nancy?

[GoodGuy]

Working on it, stay tuned. (Limited time).

Flieger-Regiment 92's position:

[sweeteye]

thank you !!!! I will be glad to have the scenarios' OOB corrected.

[JeffroK]

Note it is a Luftwaffe Field Rgt, not a Para Rg.

Be sure to rate its abilities correctly.

[sweeteye]

Yes....I have the 92 really messed up right now....as far as abilities go I have made the majority of German units with increased effectiveness values in this scenario.My first tests showed a very lopsided game in favor of the U.S.For the Wingen-sur-Moder scenario I ended up going the other way and reducing the effectiveness values of both sides.

[sweeteye]

Here is how I have the 92 at the moment.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Note it is a Luftwaffe Field Rgt, not a Para Rg.

Be sure to rate its abilities correctly.

1) Task:

Actually, a "Flieger-Regiment" served as Replacement and Training unit for the Luftwaffe Field-Divisions. Its troops were not yet incorporated into a Field-Division or Field-Regiment, plus their personnel had differing levels of training, as it was a continual in and out: recruits who finished basic infantry training, some (short?) specialist training, or some re-training after they had recovered from wounds and who were then ready for transfer to the Division, or raw recruits who had just entered the training process.
That said, they were clearly not Field-Regiments. Also, these regiments were used to filter out potential pilots, who were then sent to the flight schools, which remained in Germany, though.

By the way, if I am not mistaken, the concept of the "Fliegerhorst" units or the Luftwaffe "ad-hoc" units in HTTR is somewhat of a misconception. These troops were neither paper-pushers nor pure mechanics, cooks, or security officers/soldiers without any infantry training. Given, in these cases, the level of infantry training involved didn't contain much info about coordinating attacks, it seems.

Now, regarding abilities/level of training:

2) History:

Initially, these Luftwaffe Divisions were assembled on direct order by Hitler, who had demanded (in 1942) to transfer 200,000 men from Luftwaffe to the Heer, to compensate the losses during winter 1941/1942 (advance on Moscow) and the following German "Summer-Offensive". The ground-array of the Luftwaffe indeed had a somewhat bloated organization, but it also had numerous units with fully trained (infantry training) personnel at its disposal.

Göring talked Hitler into bringing members of the Luftwaffe to the front (on the ground) in newly raised Luftwaffenfelddivisionen, where he maybe thought he could still remain in control of these forces, in fact, most (if not all) "Luftwaffen-Feld-Divisionen" (LW Field Divisions) were incorporated into the Heer (German Army) on 1st of November 1943, though.

Hitler agreed, so Göring gave order to raise 20 Divisions using Luftwaffe members. Officers were supposed to volunteer, while - to some extent - even full compliments of NCOs and men were taken from individual units. Airborne/aviation units provided the troops for the Jäger-Regiments, Flak-Artillery units provided men for Artillery and Flak-units, Luftwaffe signal units provided the signal Abteilungen, and Luftwaffen-Construction units provided troops for the Engineer battalions.
In theory, all the units would be filled with troops from corresponding branches of the Luftwaffe. In general, these units did have no tactical experience - let alone infantry combat experience -, though, as even NCOs and Officers were from the Luftwaffe (with the exception of 1 or another Luftwaffe unit, IIRC, which was at least "pimped" with officers or even NCOs that had been transfered from the Army).
So with the "pure" Luftwaffe units, crash courses were scheduled to be held right after dismounting from the trucks (right behind the front) and right before being committed (partially at hotspots).
Accordingly, the losses of individual Luftwaffe-Field-Divisions amounted to up to 80% of their troops (units committed in 1942/43).

This, obviously, due to the lack of coordination and lack of knowledge how to concert an attack in the first place, not the lack of basic/infantry training. Also, the first set of Luftwaffe Divisions consisted of air-personnel, and also of ground-personnel that had been used for airfield duties, garrison duties or maintenance/protection on site, exclusively.

A Flieger-Ausbildungs-Regiment (later: "Flieger-Regiment") was somewhat better off at a later stage of the war, as some Wehrmacht (Army) personnel was placed to bolster its NCO/officer positions (my guess is reconvalescents or disabled officers, though), to some extent, IIRC.
In late 1944, the recruits were usually youngsters and men who were 40 and/or older without ANY combat experience, afaik. I am not sure about the composition (reg. age) of the
92. Regiment, I think Cole mentions it in his Army History report about the Lorraine campaign, though.

3) Now, the performance of the particular Regiment 92:

On the map (I posted above), you can see that Flieger-Regiment 92 was placed on a height that dominated the area. It took the 319th Regiment 2 days and heavy fighting to dislodge this unit, plus they got dislodged themselfs, when the Flieger-Regiment mounted a counterattack. As the troops of a Flieger-Regiment were intended to transfer to their supervising ground-combat unit (the Field-Division) sooner or later anyways, either the training of coordination and command/control must have gotten better, or their youngsters were just tough and determined, as the 92's perfomance in Nancy wasn't anywhere near the performance of the first LW-Field-Divisions in November 1942. It seems like 7 of the 20 new Divisions were put on occupation duties and one was placed as rear-guard (security) behind the front, so that "regular" Wehrmacht units could be released from such duties and transfered to the front. In Nancy, though, this training Regiment seems to have put up quite some performance. Also, most of the German units in the (closing) pocket of Nancy escaped and were used in the Lorraine sector or in Germany later on. The Battle of Nancy delivered a communication (and probably a logistics) hub, but the pincer movement of the armored column did not have the desired effect, as the majority of the German troops pulled out. Also, the reserves of the German defenders around Nancy were moved to defend against XX. Corps up north, which explains the rapid progress starting on 12th of September, imho.

@ sweeteye:

I'm pretty busy, really limited time, sorry for not getting back to you earlier.

Anyway, after some more research, I have to tell you that you'll have to take away the 92's third Bn, as that part of the Regiment actually consisted of a flight school, seperated into unit "A" and "B", which were both based at airports/fields in Germany. It seems that all Flieger-Regiments were organized like that, in an attempt to maintain a minimum pool of future pilots.

They also should have had a similar structure as an Army unit, especially since their superior units, the Field-Divisions, were incorporated into (and subordinated to) the Army (command). Afaik, they did have heavy weapons, not sure to what extent, though, plus i am not sure if they had mortar units ([s]an artillery-training Bn was stationed at the airfield or near Toul, along with the 92. Regiment before the Allied offensive, though[/s]).

EDIT2: The Artillery-training unit was indeed part of the airfield's garrison, but only until 1942 (it was disbanded in October '42). So, no clue about mortar/arty support. I could imagine that they had some organic mortar support, but it's also possible that the 553. Division had provided the support.

Fallschirm-Jäger-Ausbildungs-und-Ersatz-Regiment 3:

If I am not mistaken, I've read about reports (Cole?) from US soldiers, who describe the stubborn (and pretty much suicidal) determination of the young recruits of the Fallschirm-Jäger-Ausbildungs-und-Ersatz-Regiment near Nancy, where a team of 5 German Bazooka- or Panzerfaust gunners had to be scraped out of their foxholes, in order to silence those zooks, killing 4 of them, while the undetected 5th German soldier wounded 5 GIs before getting killed himself.
This episode stands for quite some of that unit's stubbornness and determination (despite its lack of combat experience). You might want to consider that in the unit's abilities tab.

EDIT: Sweeteye, I edited stuff here and there, so you might want to make sure you read the changes.

[sweeteye]

Thank you for taking the time to clarify this for me. I am now ready to post version 3 of the scenario.........I believe I will give the 92 mortar platoons.I changed the Sdkfz flak battery to a Flakvierling battery......I have high effectiveness values overall for the German units.....