Soviet Strategy

[g00dd0ggy]

In an idle moment, I thought I might post my musings on Soviet strategy and canvass some opinions on it.

My own feeling is that the ONLY limit on the advance of a decent Axis player at the beginning of the game is rail conversion. Sadly almost any attempt to hold up the advance is pretty much doomed to failure and enormous casualties. While the Soviet player can absorb big losses, you only have about 45,000 squads to lose before Winter, or you will be too weak to counterattack with much effect.

There are exceptions. The Dnepr line can be held for some time if the Axis do not reinforce AGS with a Pz Corps or two, but care must be taken not to allow the line to be too strongly held as Axis attacks from AGC from the North, or assault crossings around Zaporozhe can turn the whole area into a Kassel. Once the Dnepr line is gone, you can only really keep withdrawing - although Taganrog-Rostov offers decent defensive positions.

Elsewhere, dig in at Leningrad, Dzerzhinsk and most of all Moscow. Don't bother trying to fight the Axis before these positions. It doesn't slow them down and just costs men. Remember, the Axis advance is exclusively dictated by rail conversion. Nothing the Soviets do can make a material difference.

In mid July the battle for Leningrad will be joined. It will be tough, but it can be held if suffient resources are made available. This can be achieved by steadily stripping the Dnepr defences, which will also be under pressure by now, but which are much less important.

In late July, the fighting before Moscow will begin. This will start at the line Vyazma - Rzevh - Orel more or less. From these positions back to Moscoa should be wall to wall defences - 4 or more armies deep. Can't de done immediately, but by mid August it can be in place. This is the priority.

Defending here means defence in depth. It is the only way to stop the Axis. The front line needs to be reasonably strong, but in truth, no Soviet army will stop a determined Pz Corps or two with a few interdictions thrown in beforehand, so don't bother trying. Rather try and make the second line of armies the strongest. take the sting out of the attack and then stop it dead at the second line. In this way Axis advances become very slow, and relatively expensive too.

Try and hold on until the mud, and then keep digging in and reinforcing. If you hold Moscow, things should be OK.

The prioritising of Leningrad - Moscow probably means that the Axis will push close to Stalingrad in the South if they are aggressive, but space is plentiful there so who cares? Leningrad may well fall, but it should be possible to hold Moscow, and most critically, to avoid massive encirclements. The line Leningrad - Dzerzhinsk - Vyazma - Rzevh - Orel is quite defensible, and can be held for some time.

The Soviets are only good for static defence, and for a static defence to succeed it needs to stay solid. Defend in depth and don't bother fighting for Vitebsk/Pskov/anything much else except by way of the mildest delaying actions. During the first month, just run away as fast as possible. Save what you can - that will be tough enough against a good Axis player, even if you are only concentrating on fleeing.

Any thoughts?

[Jeremy Pritchard]

The best thing you can do is to do what the French tried in June 1940, that being the 'hedgehog' defence.

Defend only the towns and cities, with a lot of infantry and AT weapons. Defend them in depth, so if the Germans try to outflank a city, they cannot secure the city behind it because it is also fortified. Your goal is to catch their armour well ahead of their infantry as well as their HQ's (that have all of their aircraft). Target any pertruding Panzer Korps with all of the air power in the region.

You will lose the western cities very fast, primarily because they have not had a lot of time to fortify, as well as they are very close to the main German supply depots. But the further East they go, the tougher it will be to secure these cities.

Save your armour for regional local counter offensives. When you see the Germans try to encircle a fortress city, have your troops try and cut off their encircling forces (which usually consist of a few Panzer troops with Infantry being very far behind).

What is the use about taking railway lines if the cities connecting them are under enemy control?

Also, it might be worth while to keep some troops in the Pripett marshes, and create your own Partisan force.

When you can, make supply raids, targetting slowing enemy advance instead of actually attacking enemy forces. Using Armies with just one division is very worth while in this situation. You don't lose much, and they have to divert a lot of troops to stop you. Sometimes it might be wize to use a full army of troops, so when they expect only a division, they get more then they bargained for!

In rear-rear areas (places that are so far from the front it will take months for Panzers to get there) place your remaining Armies with minimal forces in them. This will have them entrench to high levels, and you can eventually shuttle in reinforcements, which will be fresh and emplaced in solid defences.

Contrary to another post I made, leave the Russian Air Force in full operation, having raids even when air groups are down to 10% strength. This will make the Luftwaffe have to focus not just on ground support, but CAP and airbase strikes. You will lose a lot, but you get a lot back later. Sure, Luftwaffe experience will raise, but it will raise anyway, and Russian training is pretty pitiful. Target your air raids on perceived weak areas, such as the German south. Leave virtually no CAP, since the Luftwaffe will chew through it anyway. Send all of your fighters on escort, because it is more important that the bombers get through.

[Ranger-75]

Very interesting, but I have a question:

Battle for Lenningrad starting in July, what are those Germans using - rocket propellled tanks? Manstein and Reinhardt had a very difficult time even getting to Lenningrad, let alone trying to take it.

[JIM366]

Originally posted by Ranger-75
Very interesting, but I have a question:

Battle for Lenningrad starting in July, what are those Germans using - rocket propellled tanks? Manstein and Reinhardt had a very difficult time even getting to Lenningrad, let alone trying to take it.

Apparently, all equipment in the German arsenal is rocket propelled.

The trick to holding Leningrad is to have 1 tank and 5 rifle divs with an AT and a Flak in the city. Hold the line Leningrad - Novgorod with armies consisting of 5 divisions each. Have at least 1 army in reserve.

If the fascist doggies try to come at you from the south side in an advance towards Tihkvin, counterattack his flank. Isolate and attack any German Panzer corp that overextends itself. (I prefer to call them Panzer Corpses myself:D )

Early deployment of ditch-diggers (Divisions which start with only a handful of squads, usualy between 20 and 70) along your defense lines is critical. By the time the Germans reach your front, you want to have level 5 fortifications everywhere.

Also, set up two 'Tank armies'; one on either flank of Moscow. Each consists of one army with 3 to 4 of your most powerful tank divisions in it. Set these up right away, then let their readiness build up. They may prove decisive in counterattacking .....

Generally, by the time my German opponents reach my main line of resistance, they are faced with a strongly held swamp line running parallel to Leningrad all the way to Novgorod - Demyansk. Moscow is covered by 3 lines of fortifications that generally wrap around in concentric circles all the way to Tula. 70% of my reinforcements are sent to the Moscow area, including all the Siberians. If I use my airforce, It is massed in this area.

To date I am yet to lose either Moscow or Leningrad.

[MB00]

I have yet to play against a human German opponent.

Some of the above comments imply an unlimited number of Russian armies to hold hexes. wish it were so.

The river Riga can be breached on the 2nd turn. Pskov can become a block...until the infantry catches up.

Keeping a unit in the trees near rail-lines could be useful for breaking German rail lines after the armour has moved by. I suggest that broken rail lines will seriously hamper German forward movement at the front due to supply problems.

The river behind Mogilev and Kiev should be defensible for a turn or two after the German armour arrive. The catch is to evacuate prior to being surrounded. Having a 2nd defensive line can help.

I am uncertain of anything south of Kiev.

I am uncertain about use of Russian air. If the bombers fail to get through...it is simply just a dying effort.

The major problem i anticipate is having sufficient individual units to start entrenching where i would prefer. It might be "game smart" to destroy russian units on the west front on the 1st turn in order to start their entrenchment closer to Moscow rather than waiting for them to die such that they can be properly resurrected.

I don't think it is viable to keep a HQ and unit(s) in the Pripett swamp to march out as partisans. Lack of supply "can" kill units.

QUOTE :
"What is the use about taking railway lines if the cities connecting them are under enemy control? "
...supply without a rail line becomes very short range. I don't believe cities are supply sources.

"Also, set up two 'Tank armies'; one on either flank of Moscow. Each consists of one army with 3 to 4 of your most powerful tank divisions in it. Set these up right away, then let their readiness build up. They may prove decisive in counterattacking "
...What is point of setting them up right away for counterattacking...when they will lose their entrenchment for a succesful advance?

In Sept 2002; i may be looking for an opponent willing to give me HELP option as the Russian. Daring opponents are welcome to email me....ben6249f@hotmail.com<on vacation month of Aug >

[Mark_BookGuy]

I've gotten clobbered every time I've played Russian against my human Hun opponent. At even level it wasn't even close. I did better at max help but Nazis were singing the Horst Wessel song in Moscow by winter. I tried holding western lines probably too far out and too long, but the idea of sacrificing an inch of the motherland to the Hitlerites was more than I could bear. The German ability to cut supply lines is simply deadly to the Russian player.

I don't think the 41 scenario is very well balanced, and I've made my opinions of the commander ratings known on other threads.

The moral of the story: have Adolf and Joe drink champaign, smoke a cigar, and get laid before it's too late. On the other hand, AH was a tee-totalling veggie non-smoker. Probably a tree hugger too.

[JIM366]

Originally posted by Mike B
I have yet to play against a human German opponent.





QUOTE :
"What is the use about taking railway lines if the cities connecting them are under enemy control? "
...supply without a rail line becomes very short range. I don't believe cities are supply sources.

"Also, set up two 'Tank armies'; one on either flank of Moscow. Each consists of one army with 3 to 4 of your most powerful tank divisions in it. Set these up right away, then let their readiness build up. They may prove decisive in counterattacking "
...What is point of setting them up right away for counterattacking...when they will lose their entrenchment for a succesful advance?

In Sept 2002; i may be looking for an opponent willing to give me HELP option as the Russian. Daring opponents are welcome to email me....ben6249f@hotmail.com<on vacation month of Aug >

Big, tough, nasty tank armies are always useful...
If the German panzers drive in too deep without support, cut them off with an Inf army, then whack the stuffing out of them with the armour. If they don't give you the opportunity, then at least you have some tough stacks near Moscow late in Barbarossa, when it really matters.

[g00dd0ggy]

Thegame is tough on the Soviet player, which is why I made the post really.

My main point was it is not possible to make a stand until Leningrad / Moscow. If you try and defend further west it is a wipe out, and you will NOT slow the German advance - that advance is dictated by rail conversion alone.

I agree there are some choke points - Pskov is probably the best, but even there, you hold the panzers for, say, two weeks, for what? If they keep going they arrive at the Leningrad defences 2 weeks earlier, but a serious assault on the defences is dictatedby the time it take for rail conversion to get near to Leningrad. Holding Pskov for a few weeks makes no difference to this. You can gain some experience, inflict somer losses, but it won't make a material difference. It also runs the risk that the Pz will encircle a large-ish force if you miscalculate.

This is the real problem. To make any sort of defence requires large forces, but they are immensely vulnerable to encirclement, and you can't afford to lose too much. So run away to Leningrad-Moscow and abandon the South I say.

I note the comment on Leningrad at end July, but in the game at least, I have been fighting for it then. The Germans are very low on supply, but the Russians are weak too. Fighting gets serious in August and desperate in September.

I don't agree with hlding "hedgehogs". They will be immediately encircled and last about 1 week max. To last even a week they need to be very strong. They won't slow the German advance and they are very expensive.

The Germans have a big advantage if the Russians try and stand and fight. I am sayingdon't try except on your own terms. Fight for LEningrad and Moscow with all you have, don't worry about anything else.

[davewolf]

I'd agree that it is almost impossible to slow down the advance of a determined German player.

The biggest disadvantage for the Russian player from my point of view is the d@mn plot penalty.

How can you organize your defense, if probably almost every counter-attack or move to cut the German supply lines fail?

All you can do is just sit (hopefully at the right place) and wait.

It's like sitting inside the Nostromo and waiting for the Alien to come.


*** cold shivers ***


Mother, where's the f***ing self destruction mode???

[Micha]

Originally posted by JIM366

To date I am yet to lose either Moscow or Leningrad.

I don't know if I will be able to change that, but I'd like to give it a try, and I think there is a chance. Would you care for a PBEM game?

[Bernard]

What do you mean "leave armies in Prippet, and have a partisan army".

with no supply, they disappear... hey go in hiding ?

I agree with you guys. Never lost against IA, made first game against human, fought back too early. lost 60.000 + squads in august.... of course opponent lost lots of tanks an squads bu ho long will ilast ?

However, another tactic is to deplete armies at contact and send them in holes to seize rail hexes. that way forward PZ Korps have supply of 1 or 2 and don't advance much.

my opponent in a game did it and eventually as i couldn't resupply and had been driving east like hell, i lost (!) 2 Pz Korps in august.

tried the same as a russian and slowed down a lot Axis. fought back at Pskov and held.

tell you more if i survive.

PS : i would never have thought to have so much fun with a game i got fed up of never losing while playing against IA. now being kicked all the time by humans.

[thantis]

Against the AI - it is extremely easy to fortify the Leningrad to Moscow line (since you're not dealing with a balls-to-the-wall opponent) - and it can be even possible to hold Kiev if the troops are available from the fight up north.

Against a human opponent, the Soviet player not only has to worry about Barbarossa 1941, but also the possibility of a replay in 1942 (if the armor is withdrawn early enough & the Soviet counteroffensive in the winter is not extremely damaging). As the Russians, you can find yourself facing rebuilt Panzer Corps as strong, and sometimes stronger, than the ones you faced in '41.

A good opponent will strive to do maximum damage in 1941 (and take the victory cities if possible) - if not, then withdraw to a defensible line (probably in the Smolensk vicinity) and rebuild for another try in 1942. Even if the Russian player can entrench heavily around Moscow & Leningrad, there is always going to be at least one weak area - more than likely in the south.

You'll find a revised Case Blue, backed with more and better equipped troops than historically was case, usually smashing though the southern defenses, then turning north towards Moscow. The Russian player is forced to move troops into blocking positions (and losing the entrenchment bonuses) and finding themselves backed to the wall until the winter of 1942. There's usually no winter offensive in 1942 - and attritional warefare continues until the game ends in 1945 (if the German player doesn't succeed in winning).

A smart German is faced with two possible outcomes - victory in 1941 or '42, or a draw with the battlelines still deep inside Russia at the end of the game. A human player won't make the same mistakes Hitler made (no Fuhrer orders) and can keep the initiative well into the game - especially is sufficient damage is done to the Red Army in the first two years of the campaign.

[K62_]

Originally posted by thantis
Against the AI - it is extremely easy to fortify the Leningrad to Moscow line (since you're not dealing with a balls-to-the-wall opponent) - and it can be even possible to hold Kiev if the troops are available from the fight up north.

The AI positively stinks (in fact, does anybody know a strategy game with a good AI? besides chess, I mean). I gave up playing against it after I gave it Max Help Axis in a game. It even failed to take Smolensk and Pskov and by Oct '42 I was in Berlin. Oops!:eek:

[Stefdragon]

Dear gOOddOggy:

The High Command has asked me to thank you for starting this thread. They are extremely pleased with the numerous observations that are being posted and who is posting them.
You will be amply compensated. (The only negatives of the "doggy-style" photos of you and davewolf that were put under your door on July 25th, at 2:41pm, are being sent to you via mail, as we speak).

As for the rest of you.....

Once the encirclement is complete, those of you who are critical and distainful of the Fatherland will be dealt with accordingly.

Those of you who are adding to the legend of what we affectionately call "PANZER POWER", by posting your trepidation and fear, will be justly rewarded...

For you are all invited to a special party in your honor!

When: All next weekend!
Where: The Wolf's Lair, Eastern Poland. (Directions to Follow).
Dress: Black, of course.

There will be some great food and drinks and anything else your little hearts desire...anything.

No need to bring any bodyguards or weapons...your safety is
Guaranteed!

See you there!

[davewolf]

Stefdragon, your cover has been blown.

Obviously you're a member of the Red Dragon cell which serves Comrade Stalin and the Bolshevistic World Conspiracy (this order).

Stop trying to tell us lies about how the mighty Wehrmacht could be beaten. Eventually you'll probably claim that the Red Army won the war!

You heretic shall die a dragon's death. I've already called my old lad Siegfried. (Not the one from Vegas, you fool.)

:p

The picture

P.S. I'm actually a dragons fan...

[Stefdragon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by davewolf

You heretic shall die a dragon's death. I've already called my old lad Siegfried. (Not the one from Vegas, you fool.)

First of all, there must be a way to stop the Axis in the Barbarossa
Scenario.

But heck, I'm still trying to figure out how to defend the Fatherland in the later scenarios, and haven't gotten to that challenge yet.

As for you Mr. davewolf...

Now I'm angry.

This is the second time that you have threatened me with a "Dragon's Demise" at the hands of this so Teutonically named Sigfried.

As for the Vegas act, I never really liked him at all...
I actually preferred Roy...but that's another story...you silly beast!

You Mr. Wolf have done everything possible to thwart my campaign for a "Northern Theater" in WIR. You have "hounded me" (get it?) from thread to thread, trying to discredit me.
Were you frightened by a Snowman or something when you were a puppy?

I happen to be Mr. Wolf, a Cyber-Psychologist, and I can safely diagnose that you are...AN EGOMANIAC, who will not compromise!

Well I just happen to have a picture of you in which you do actually compromise...I know it's you so don't try to deny it.

http://www.isu.edu/outdoor/books/wolf.jpg

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Stefdragon
I happen to be Mr. Wolf, a Cyber-Psychologist, and I can safely diagnose that you are...AN EGOMANIAC, who will not compromise!

You're just telling the obvious...

Well I just happen to have a picture of you in which you do actually compromise...I know it's you so don't try to deny it.

http://www.isu.edu/outdoor/books/wolf.jpg

I'm a black wolf (like the black sheep).

[Stefdragon]

Originally posted by davewolf

I'm a black wolf (like the black sheep).

Oh yea?

What's the color of the wolf in YOUR AVATAR??....smarty pants!

:p :rolleyes:

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Stefdragon
What's the color of the wolf in YOUR AVATAR??

Kinda negative. Or have you ever seen a black full moon?

[Stefdragon]

Originally posted by davewolf

Kinda negative. Or have you ever seen a black full moon?

Only Gumby and Jack La Lanne have done more stretching than you have in the last few posts.

:rolleyes: