How do you all like new v1.20 bug fixes?

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

Moderators: Joel Billings, Tankerace, siRkid

User avatar
Apollo11
Posts: 25248
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

How do you all like new v1.20 bug fixes?

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

I haven't seen many messages here regarding the v1.20 ...

Either it's summer vacation time for most or people are so busy and happy playing
the v1.20 that they don't have time to post here)... :-)

So...

How do you all like new v1.20 bug fixes?

What are the experiences with level bombers at low level attacks (flying at 1000ft)?

Should Norden sight equipped bombers (B-17. B-25, B-26) be employed in low
level attacks at all after v1.20 patch?


Leo "Apollo11"
Image

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
DSandberg
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: MN

Post by DSandberg »

I tried one low-level B-17 attack after the patch, just as an experiment (as reported in my AAR from a day ago). The results were encouraging ... no hits, quite a few damaged bombers (none lost, though) and significant fatigue for the crews afterwards. Don't think I'll be doing that much more. Had somewhat more useful results going after transports at 3000 with medium bombers, and ended up using the B-17s for what they were designed for ... to smear enemy installations from high altitude, which they continue to do very well indeed.

I for one am very happy with the change.
"... planning and preparations were made with great efforts with this day as a goal. Before this target day came, however, the tables had been turned around entirely and we are now forced to do our utmost to cope with the worst. Thi
caine
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2002 12:27 pm
Location: Barcelona (Spain)

Post by caine »

I am waiting for the AA and ASW ratings to be shown somewhere.An overall gunnery rating would also be of great help.As regards the changes in v1.20 the percentage in building is a great advance.Also, the other bug corrections.
doomonyou
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:56 pm
Contact:

I like the 1.2

Post by doomonyou »

I started a 1.2 #17 as americans.

Jap CV task force wandered in to support buna/gili invasions and I had 9 hudsons, 16 b-25, and 8 b-17s go over them at 6,000feet. Scored two 500 lbs on shokaku and one 250 on ryujo. Thats fine and it realistically represents the effect of LBA going in fairly low (6000 ain't on deck, but it isn't the stupid 20,000 foot raids they tried in RL from midway). Your not going to plaster a ten warship task force with level bombers and get 10 sunk ships, but you sure wouldn't want to loiter indefinately in the area, and you will pay a toll for transiting unprotected under the enemy's LBA umbrellas.

Unfortunately for the japanese in my new game one of hte shokaku hits was a fuel explosion and it fell out of the task force. The following turn (clear too hehehehe) sent the LBA back over the sorry bastards and put three more 500lbers into him. Fires or Flooding aparently overcame it not long afterward.

great job with the patch.
bradfordkay
Posts: 8602
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:39 am
Location: Olympia, WA

Post by bradfordkay »

I'm glad to see that the LBA can still get hits on CVs. I was worried that my USN tactics (staying far enough south to encourage the IJN to risk attack by my LBA before I commit my fragile carriers) would be completely voided by the patch. My present game is so far along that there aren't any real IJN threats in the area (at least none that I've seen), so I haven't been able to test the patch in that regard.
fair winds,
Brad
wmtiz
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:56 am
Location: Belton, Texas

Post by wmtiz »

One thing I have encountered with the 1.2 patch is something I had not seen previously. I had a CV group providing LRCAP to an amphi group invading Gili Gili (as the Allies). A group of G4M Bettys came in to attack from Rabaul. The CAP took care of most of them, some leakers got through a damaged one of the APs. The curious thing was the AAR listed the attack altitude of the Bettys as 200ft. I cannot recall the AI sending in attack aircraft at that low an altitude before. I have not played a ton of scenarios, and have not played much since the 1.12 patch was released, so maybe I just missed it before, but it caught my attention that time. Anyone else notice this, or was it common prior to the 1.20 patch?
Know your enemy and know yourself and you will always be victorious -- Sun Tzu
User avatar
Spooky
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2002 2:16 am
Location: Froggy Land
Contact:

Post by Spooky »

Originally posted by wmtiz
One thing I have encountered with the 1.2 patch is something I had not seen previously. I had a CV group providing LRCAP to an amphi group invading Gili Gili (as the Allies). A group of G4M Bettys came in to attack from Rabaul. The CAP took care of most of them, some leakers got through a damaged one of the APs. The curious thing was the AAR listed the attack altitude of the Bettys as 200ft. I cannot recall the AI sending in attack aircraft at that low an altitude before. I have not played a ton of scenarios, and have not played much since the 1.12 patch was released, so maybe I just missed it before, but it caught my attention that time. Anyone else notice this, or was it common prior to the 1.20 patch?
200 feet is the final altitude for attack with torpedoes ... and Betty will attack with torpedoes if their targets are in the "normal" range ...
User avatar
Raverdave
Posts: 4882
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 5:00 pm
Location: Melb. Australia

ASW

Post by Raverdave »

I was worried that the new 1000ft rules would effect ASW a/c, but from what I have seen it is still ok to use your ASW a/c set at 1000ft....phew!
Image


Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Black Cat
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2002 6:46 pm

1.2 Patch Probs

Post by Black Cat »

Item # 22 in the 1.2 Patch ( surface ship anti-sub improvement )does not seem to be there at all for the U.S. Human Player.

In three starts of Scenario #17 I have had 3 Surface Combat TF`s composed of 1 DD, 2 PG`s and 3 PC`s cruise around Noumea over Sub Contacts. There were at least 3 - 4 Subs in the area.

As per the Manual they were "preped" with a few prior cruises.
These were to be my Anti Sub Warfare TF`s.

Over 30 turns in 2 starts and 90 in the other, I had 11 instances of the Japanese Subs attacking the AS TF`s around Noumea.

In those 11 attacks, 7 resulted in a sinking of one of the AS ships.


In only one of those 11 attacks did the AS TF counter attack the Sub.

The AS TF`s Never Lunched One Attack, although they were clearly passing over the Hexes with the Subs, this after the PBY`s were spotting them too....:rolleyes:

I`m willing to hope that these results improve with time ( if I don`t run out of PC`s first ;) ) ....if not it would seem that you guys need a Bigger Hammer to fix this ...:(
entemedor
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 12:20 am
Location: Barcelona (Spain)

Level bombers as anti-ship weapon

Post by entemedor »

Apollo,
with 1.12 patch level bombers are still getting hits on ships, but not on a unrealistic way. A few turns ago, 4 B-26s at 6000 ft attacked three unescorted cargo ship, they obtained a bomb hit. Twelve B-26s repeated the attack next day on another convoy, same height, no hits obtained.
It looks quite realistic now.
User avatar
Apollo11
Posts: 25248
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

Thanks to all who posted their observations!


Leo "Apollo11"
Image

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
User avatar
Nikademus
Posts: 22517
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Alien spacecraft

Post by Nikademus »

For the most part, liking what i am seeing. Havnt seen too drastic a change in level bombers of course because since i'm playing the AI, it never resorted to the constant low level bombing runs that players complained about in PBEMs though i have noticed a lesser tendancy for the bombs to hit (the string of bombs fix per heavy bomber) very nice

I have noticed a greater chance for small penny packet heavy and medium bomber groups being hurt by large and medium CAP patrols though more often than not, they continue to get through alot but at least with the new flak and disruption improvements, they often dont hit anything. I even had the pleasure of seeing a strong A6M group sock it to a couple small B-26 raids, not only driving them off but shooting down (reportedly, not verified :) ) several.

B-17's continue to be a bit uber......"Not" in terms of being hard to shoot down but in that they keep shooting down more zeros than the escorts half the time :) One thing that came to mind to me over the weekend was i'm wondering if the the game accounts for vulnerable hits on big bombers or if it just factors the durability rating. Head on passes for example should be far more dangerous for even Fortresses vs attacks from other quarters due to cannon and MG fire pouring into exposed engines and cockpit/pilot areas.

I was concerned about the possibility of a bug concerning large LBA's conducting mass operations against land and especially sea targets. Had been seeing alot of penny packet attacks against located sea targets in spite of ample supplies and low fatique (good morale too). So much that i decided to test it by doing something stupid.....i.e. sending in a two regiment invasion TF and a strong surface TF to the western tip of New Calodonia to see if one, the AI would react to it (it had been somewhat placid in my campaign vs Luganville, even factoring in the ship losses) and more importantly to see if the airforce would come out in force or attack in penny packets. Didn't yet have enough air power in place to make this a wise decision but what the hell....BANZAI

A good test considering Normura by 12/15/42 is a hornet's nest of Allied power......no less than 200 fighters and 250 bombers if my J1N1's are not smoking something they shouldn't be (confirmed by a peek since the game is close to ending)

At first it seemed to confirm my fears, as through a combination of bad weather and such, there were either no raids and when a launch was made it was a 10-20 plane group, easily repulsed., i was able to put ashore both regiments in 2-3 turns time and take the base.

The rosy picture changed when the weather cleared though and i was hit by two 250+ plane raids from Normura which devastated my surface TF (because half of those bombers were SBD dive bombers lugging 1000ILBers!)

At the same time my four Beatty squads, ordered to hit the airfield in a daylight op, also attacked en-masse leading to one of the most intense fights yet seen over a base as 35 Zeros tangled with 55 F4F's , 20 P-39's and 10 P-40E's. The resultant strike made little impression on the airbase due to the disruption as expected

Needless to say though my zeros put up a good fight they were overwelmed by the defence losing 15 of their number and 20 of 53 Beattys in trade for 10 P-39's and 2-3 F4F's (and numerous damages)

Despite the pounding i took i was happy to see that if there's a bug going on somewhere in the air code, it isnt chronic to the point where powerful and rested airbases wont launch. If anything it almost seems to be the weather routine which often cancels air missions "due to poor weather" regardless of the gravity of the situation, the realism of which i suppose is debatable so i wont take a stand on that for the time being.

The only poor part was again in the uber-preformance of the bombs. Naturally my three battleships (two Kongo and one Nagato) attracted much of the attention of the SBD's. Hits were not proliferent as my AA was strong and the land based SBD's were quite green, most newly arrived from the States and not as proficient as their carrier based compatriots. Only about half a dozen hits all told on each one through two raids. However because of the overpenetrative qualities of the bombs, every one penetrated the deck armors to cause serious damage.....such that one battleship sank (no torp hits were scored.....only bombs) and the other two were crippled.

Naturally if this could happen to the thick skinned BB's the other ships had no chance either and more damages were dolled out to various CA and CL's.

Hopefully the bomb rating issue will be addressed for 1.21 but at least air bases are working better than i thought. I may just have to sit tight and wait for victory despite the tempting sight of those two undefended New Calodonia bases next to Normura :)

Not so sure about longer range attacks though......Rabaul for example has yet to send out a full or near full strength raid against AI AK incursions well north of Gili Gili despite having two to three squads of torp carrying level bombers. Often just 10 planes of a single squadron get sent out.

AV float plane problem continues. They wont operate, either on Naval search or ASW missions, whether in port (but undocked) or at sea. Only surface combat and air combat TF's operate their float planes. this has been going on since 1.10)

In general.......1.20 is a peach, and UV only gets better with each patch (though i miss not seeing the names of ships in surface combat resolutions.....more exciting when you see who's who doing what and it doesn't seem to me a big FOW violation in terms of what a player can do with the info anymore than knowing which FG names are dueling in the air)

One suggestion.....i noticed that even if set to "defensive" that both sides ground pounders always bombard automatically. This can be inconvienient if the supply situation is critical and i'm wondering if this should not be changed so that a force can remain static in order to conserve supply points against future assaults. Not sure if this is a big deal as it still took me weeks to drain the enemy troops of supply points but figured i would throw this one out for opinions and comment



Great job guys , keep it up
User avatar
denisonh
Posts: 2083
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Upstate SC

Allied LBA Bombers @ 1000 ft

Post by denisonh »

I have kept my LBA @ 1000 ft for Naval and Airfied attacks in my current PBEM game.

There is definitely an effect on the morale, particularly if they take casualties due to AA. The morale drops like a rock, and definitely rules out that strategy for sustained operations against a land based target with AA at 1000ft.
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
Black Cat
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2002 6:46 pm

Porked

Post by Black Cat »

by the 1.2 Patch !!

Yep, that`s what item # 13 in 1.2 has done to the US player....B-17`s that take damage take forever to be repaired, in my case 20+ days, if indeed they ever are...

A 12 AC B-17 BS flys ONE mission, 4 planes are damaged, they are gone.....the 8 fly a mission, 2 are "damaged" now there are 6.....with " Enhancements" like this who needs Bugs..?
User avatar
denisonh
Posts: 2083
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Upstate SC

B-17 Repair

Post by denisonh »

Does somebody have good figures on the turnaround time on repair for B-17s in the ETO? I am sure that they took more damage in that theater from fighters and flak than the average PTO B-17, and doubt if they were waiting more than 2 or 3 days before flying the group with 80%+ of their a/c.

And if I remember correctly, during "Big Week" in FEB 44, they we running missions dam near every day for most of the B-17 bomber groups in England.

Don't think they would be nearly effective if their repair rates mirrored what Black Cat is experiencing....
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
User avatar
Ron Saueracker
Posts: 10967
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece

Post by Ron Saueracker »

I think there is varying degrees of a/c damage (denoted by the number of * next to notification ie, **** Kate damaged) At 1000 ft I can't see a B17 jinking around all calibers of shell bursts, so they should get creamed and if not brought down, should be virtual wrecks in need of a long repair. At higher altitudes, flak does the most damage (but less frequently), and fighters were not guaranteed bomber busters vs 4 engined jobs. Even Luftwaffe fighters were quite respectful of the big bomber's ability to give and take punishment. So, keep your bombers at high altitude, the Eighth AF did. Oh yeah, what was the casualty rate of the B 24 squadrons that hit Ploesti at low level? Nuff said.

As for being "porked" by the1.2 patch, the Japanese player was suffering the incursion with uber Allied LBA prior to 1.2. In my opinion, the LBA fix is not perfect, but is a happy median between the two poles regarding this issue. People who believe that 4 engined LBA should be devastatingly accurate at low altitudes based on a few squadrons having practiced it still get a high percentage of hits (at a price) while those who think 4 engined LBA was too strong have the satisfaction of seeing 4E LBA get chewed up, lose experience through loss of pilots, and lose morale due to uncharacteristic use of dodos as hawks. I'm OK with it.:cool:

The ETO was a theatre which got a whole lot more replacement pilots and aircraft than those in the PTO. B 17s actually were being phased out of the PTO in 1943 in favour of longer ranged 4E bombers. So, it stands to reason that getting an ETO BS to 80% was easier than the PTO.
Image

Image

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
Black Cat
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2002 6:46 pm

Wrong !!!

Post by Black Cat »

Porked by 1.2 is not about super duper uber low level Heavy Bombers beating up those poor Japanese players tooling around the South Pacific in the Campaign Game with their 7 Big Flattops with the Uber Zero Air Wings...poor guys, they need help !! :rolleyes:

They need help , so lets remove the US Heavy Bombers from the Game for them...but lets call it " ajusting AC repair time"


Porked by 1.2 is about any damage incured by the heavy bombers is now in effect a shoot down. Go to the Bug Forum and read Joels post on the AC Repair thread.

Because of the way Damage is modeled in the Game and the new 1.2 repair ratios, 4 missions and your Heavy Bomber Sq, as a unit, is out of the War for 25 - 30 days..... think about that, think hard.
User avatar
denisonh
Posts: 2083
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Upstate SC

Question?

Post by denisonh »

What was the average repair time for heavy bombers in the PTO? Does anyone have any data or information to shed light on the subject?

Given the ETO had more resources, it still seems ridiculous that a B-17 takes a 20mm round in the fuselage and sits on the tarmac an average of 5 days to get repaired? (reference a previous post, avg time to repair = 1/probability of repair = 1/0.2 =5 days).

AVERAGE of 5 days with std dev of 4.47 Days. I would think 2 or maybe 3 as reasonable, but 5 is way too much. And is is not the average, but the variability that creates way too many down days. (as opposed to a 33% repair rate that represents an avg of 3 days to repair with a 3 days std deviation: so 16.7% chance of an a/c taking 7 or more days to repair)

I should theoretically be able to run heavy bombers then rest them for 3-4 days and have 80% ready assuming supply and support. This can't be achieved with 5 day average.

So you are telling me that I can run bombers once a week, or just get used to putting up 25% of my bombers for a mission?

I have heard the point of accurately simulating combat, and with the stated probabilities, it seems rather unlikely that this will be the case with regards to B-17 Ops.
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
User avatar
Ron Saueracker
Posts: 10967
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece

Well..........how rude.

Post by Ron Saueracker »

I've had no prob thus far keeping around a 70% operational level with my B 17 BSs, as long as they are used for what they were designed for, high altitude bombing.

As I said earlier, I beleive there are various levels of damage to an airplane, if the "***B 17" damaged means worse damage than "*B 17 damaged". Lighter damage means faster repair time, I would hazard. If not, you guys might have a point there. When intercepted by fighters, I've only recalled seeing a * or ** indicator on the bombers. Flak hurts more but is less accurate at this height. Does anyone know if these *** doodads represent damage severity?

Oh, bye the bye. I'll bet on the 6 USN CVs against that IJN multiple CV Death Star any day. USN CAP and AA rules.:D
Image

Image

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
doomonyou
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:56 pm
Contact:

as a recovering 1000 foot a holic....

Post by doomonyou »

I think the new repair times are not that bad. The b-17 was getting phased out and the war in europe demaned every fortress available. I regularly send lbs 4 & 2E on naval at 6000 feet. With larger groups of bombers (20+) I regularly get three to four hits on enemy shipping. This is fine. My bombers rarely come back too mauled and the repair times do reflect a relatively realistic problem with supply. Lets say Morseby has 10 spare engines for by B-17's. I could concievably use them up after one big 17 raid on rabaul. I would take two weeks to get more from the states to morseby. I can't bitch too loud about that.

Plus, we all know what happens to the port of Rabaul after 45 b-17s and 18 Hudsons roll over it at 8000 feet. It takes them a lot longer to repair the buring hulks of docked ships and fuel tank infernos that I leave behind.....
Post Reply

Return to “Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific”