Question about German support units, etc.

[Mike13z50]

I just started my first German GC vs AI normal. I was looking at my support units and have only 20 pioneer bn total, I was getting ready to attach them to the the panzer spearheads and realized I don't get to build any.

So, how do you handle attachments as the germans?

What do you attach to panzers, motorized, assault infantry (Model's Corps)?

What do you put in defensive infantry corps HQ, Pnz HQ.

Do you move the road construction bn back up to AG/Army HQ?

Also, should I keep the Army HQs at the rail head, or chase the panzer spearheads?
I seem to remember reading that the Army HQ forwards supply to the Corps HQ, but I can't find that anywhere in the rule book. I chased the spear heads and ended up with mostly MP in the 30's on turn 3.

Only my second gc, finished my soviet one this weekend.

Suggestions welcome.

[2ndACR]

First off, you don't get to build anything, your stuck with historical units and withdraw dates.

I lock every HQ and manually assign units. All Corps HQ's will get minimum of 3 artillery units. Sometimes I will leave a pioneer unit in each so that all attacks might get help from it.

Motorized usually get a Stug or Jagdpanzer attached. Pioneers can go to Panzer or my assault infantry div's.

Very few of my Corps HQ's will have any construction bn's in them. They all go to major HQ's and army HQ's. I place the Army HQ's at crossroads on repaired rail to start spreading out and doing their thing.

[lastdingo]

Keep road construction on autopilot.

Reserve assault guns, pioneers and the like till you're close to Leningrad and need to chew through some prepared fortifications. Equip your infantry divisions there with it.

Many Romanian infantry units will over time fall back as occupation troops. Rid them and their corps of all support firepower, transfer that support to the Romanian front-line corps and armies.

The real railway building happens with three or four special units (forgot the names) and you need to do that manually. Move it onto a railroad, order it to build that railroad, move, order, rinse repeat till no movement points are left. The use of these few formations is -together with the deployment of your Panzer Corps - the most important job.

A handful or rear area support units can be disbanded entirely 8read the forum, I forgot their names too).

Anti-Air artillery should be kept at higher headquarters, air HQs, airfields or be disbanded. You don't need the AAA at the army corps in 1941, but they'd experience losses there.

Some extremely heavy siege artillery units are a natural choice for siege projects such as Leningrad and Sevastopol. Send them back to OKH afterwards.

[vinnie71]

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

I just started my first German GC vs AI normal. I was looking at my support units and have only 20 pioneer bn total, I was getting ready to attach them to the the panzer spearheads and realized I don't get to build any.

So, how do you handle attachments as the germans?

What do you attach to panzers, motorized, assault infantry (Model's Corps)?

What do you put in defensive infantry corps HQ, Pnz HQ.

Do you move the road construction bn back up to AG/Army HQ?

Also, should I keep the Army HQs at the rail head, or chase the panzer spearheads?
I seem to remember reading that the Army HQ forwards supply to the Corps HQ, but I can't find that anywhere in the rule book. I chased the spear heads and ended up with mostly MP in the 30's on turn 3.

Only my second gc, finished my soviet one this weekend.

Suggestions welcome.

First of all lock HQ's - SU's tend to move around a lot unfortunately.
Seondly check out who's got what - VIII corps is especially loaded and should distribute its assets around.

Regarding attachments, here are my preferences:

Panzer Div's get SP AA battalions. There aren't enough to go around so you can use 2 SP AA companies. The reason is that Panzer formations tend to operate upfront and can become a target for interdiction.

Panzer Grenadiers tend to get Stug formations attached plus the motorised (army) flak units. This will give them some offensive firepower (Stugs) and defensive staying power (flak) since they need to both attack and hold the line around pockets.

Normal infantry formations don't get anything in particular unless they are on a specific mission. One exception are the Jaeger units - these are smaller than typical Infantry divisions and so I attach to them the few German MG and sole Recce battalion to bolster their staying power.

For the Germans SU's are mostly important at Corps level. As a rule of thumb I like to have the following attached to each Infantry corps - 3 artillery (gun) units, 1 pioneer and 1 Mixed Luftwaffe Flak battalion (for anti tank duty). In threatened sectors I add a Panzerjaeger battalion and/or Stugs. Panzerjaeger battalions, especially early in the war tend to be fragile (only light AT guns or Lt Panzerjaegers which are not replacable till '43), so I use them only at corps level.

If an infantry corps is intended for breakthrough operations, I tend to replace 1 or more artillery units with rockets, add Stugs and pioneers as needed.

For Panzerkorps I prefer to have rockets and a pioneer unit. Don't need to have Luftwaffe (mixed) flak battalions since Pz and PzGren Div tend to have good anti armour capability. The only addition I make is to have lLuftwaffe ight flak battalions to the HQ's since these tend to show up if your divisions are attacked from the air (at least that's my impression).

The only SU's that are completely useless are SP infantry gun companies. These tend to evaporate after the first attacks. As far as I know, no replacements are available any time and so they just vanish over time - they're just one shot wonders.

Regarding Construction units, there are two tiers of repairs needed - deep behind the line and within 10 to 15 hexes of the frontline. Use the FBDs on main rail lines only. At first quite a number of construction battalions are at OKH or AG level, and that's ok since they just 'fill in' the rail network deep behind the frontline. Of especial importance is Army Group Antonescu in the south which has a lot of Rumanian Construction battalions at hand, and will serve to repair the rail lines around Lvov at first, moving forward as the rails are repaired.

Quite a lot of such units are found at Corps level. Most are not really needed there though it seems that construction battalions may help divisions to dig in faster (heard it on the forum but can't confirm). Most of these I move to army or AG HQs. Army HQ's will repair lateral raillines, something which is vital in '41.

Regarding Axis SU's, the only gripe I have is that Minor Axis allies cannot attach any to thier line divisions (Rumanian and Finnish MG battalions and Italian legions could actually bolster the pathetic infantry divisions of the allies). Thus most players tend to disband them, especially the infantry based ones like MGs. I tend to follow the 3 artillery, 1 Pioneer and 1 (medium or Heavy) AA unit rule as well for Axis minor allies as well, with extra MGs for the Rumanians (sometimes, rarely, they actually get involved in a fight). The Hungarians get few SU's (just enough to have some for each corps), the Rumanians get a few AT battalions as well, the Finnish have an abundance of artillery while the Italinas have an abundance of everything except for pioneers.

Hope that helps a bit

[Jajusha]

Great advice here.

What's the best way of doing this?

- Setting support level in Corps+Army to 0 at turn 1, then lock at turn 2 and start re-assigning
- Locking Support at turn 1, and manualy re-assigning

[vinnie71]

Lock transfers immediately. Also especially at the begining, if one has extra APs (I know its hard), it is wise to shift extra SU's to OKH or at least AG level. That way, once the campaign is underway, it would be easier to distribute SUs. OKH and AG HQ's end up as a clearing house of SU where these can be redistributed as needed or allowed to recover their strength in peace...

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Lock transfers immediately. Also especially at the begining, if one has extra APs (I know its hard), it is wise to shift extra SU's to OKH or at least AG level. That way, once the campaign is underway, it would be easier to distribute SUs. OKH and AG HQ's end up as a clearing house of SU where these can be redistributed as needed or allowed to recover their strength in peace...

A variation that saves a few APs if you are patient.

1. Set all assault corps to 3 and any others to 0
2. Set OKH & AGs to 9
3. Set all Army to 0
4. Wait two turns
5. Go through your assault corps, locking them and adding SUs to meet your desired levels if possible and manually sending any un-needed SUs to OKH
6. Set AGs to 0
7. Wait two turns
8. Lock everyone, add SUs for corps HQs that were not able to complete step 5
9. Strip un-needeed SUs from Army and AG HQs while adding any required for your personal plan

This method only delays Offworlder's plan by four turns which you probably need anyway due to lack of APs. It also saves a substantial number of APs by moving at least a basic capability automatically to corps HQs

[mmarquo]

OTOH - I am experimenting with placing as many SUs as I can into 2 divisions per corps - and then using at least one of these divisions in an attack; in this manner the SU always gets committed and it is not subject to a die roll. Of course this limits the number of SU supported attacks to 2 or 3 per corps depending on MPs but it seems to work...

Marquo

[Mike13z50]

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

I just started my first German GC vs AI normal. I was looking at my support units and have only 20 pioneer bn total, I was getting ready to attach them to the the panzer spearheads and realized I don't get to build any.

So, how do you handle attachments as the germans?

What do you attach to panzers, motorized, assault infantry (Model's Corps)?

What do you put in defensive infantry corps HQ, Pnz HQ.

Do you move the road construction bn back up to AG/Army HQ?

Also, should I keep the Army HQs at the rail head, or chase the panzer spearheads?
I seem to remember reading that the Army HQ forwards supply to the Corps HQ, but I can't find that anywhere in the rule book. I chased the spear heads and ended up with mostly MP in the 30's on turn 3.

Only my second gc, finished my soviet one this weekend.

Suggestions welcome.

First of all lock HQ's - SU's tend to move around a lot unfortunately.
Seondly check out who's got what - VIII corps is especially loaded and should distribute its assets around.

Regarding attachments, here are my preferences:

Panzer Div's get SP AA battalions. There aren't enough to go around so you can use 2 SP AA companies. The reason is that Panzer formations tend to operate upfront and can become a target for interdiction.

Panzer Grenadiers tend to get Stug formations attached plus the motorised (army) flak units. This will give them some offensive firepower (Stugs) and defensive staying power (flak) since they need to both attack and hold the line around pockets.

Normal infantry formations don't get anything in particular unless they are on a specific mission. One exception are the Jaeger units - these are smaller than typical Infantry divisions and so I attach to them the few German MG and sole Recce battalion to bolster their staying power.

For the Germans SU's are mostly important at Corps level. As a rule of thumb I like to have the following attached to each Infantry corps - 3 artillery (gun) units, 1 pioneer and 1 Mixed Luftwaffe Flak battalion (for anti tank duty). In threatened sectors I add a Panzerjaeger battalion and/or Stugs. Panzerjaeger battalions, especially early in the war tend to be fragile (only light AT guns or Lt Panzerjaegers which are not replacable till '43), so I use them only at corps level.

If an infantry corps is intended for breakthrough operations, I tend to replace 1 or more artillery units with rockets, add Stugs and pioneers as needed.

For Panzerkorps I prefer to have rockets and a pioneer unit. Don't need to have Luftwaffe (mixed) flak battalions since Pz and PzGren Div tend to have good anti armour capability. The only addition I make is to have lLuftwaffe ight flak battalions to the HQ's since these tend to show up if your divisions are attacked from the air (at least that's my impression).

The only SU's that are completely useless are SP infantry gun companies. These tend to evaporate after the first attacks. As far as I know, no replacements are available any time and so they just vanish over time - they're just one shot wonders.

Regarding Construction units, there are two tiers of repairs needed - deep behind the line and within 10 to 15 hexes of the frontline. Use the FBDs on main rail lines only. At first quite a number of construction battalions are at OKH or AG level, and that's ok since they just 'fill in' the rail network deep behind the frontline. Of especial importance is Army Group Antonescu in the south which has a lot of Rumanian Construction battalions at hand, and will serve to repair the rail lines around Lvov at first, moving forward as the rails are repaired.

Quite a lot of such units are found at Corps level. Most are not really needed there though it seems that construction battalions may help divisions to dig in faster (heard it on the forum but can't confirm). Most of these I move to army or AG HQs. Army HQ's will repair lateral raillines, something which is vital in '41.

Regarding Axis SU's, the only gripe I have is that Minor Axis allies cannot attach any to thier line divisions (Rumanian and Finnish MG battalions and Italian legions could actually bolster the pathetic infantry divisions of the allies). Thus most players tend to disband them, especially the infantry based ones like MGs. I tend to follow the 3 artillery, 1 Pioneer and 1 (medium or Heavy) AA unit rule as well for Axis minor allies as well, with extra MGs for the Rumanians (sometimes, rarely, they actually get involved in a fight). The Hungarians get few SU's (just enough to have some for each corps), the Rumanians get a few AT battalions as well, the Finnish have an abundance of artillery while the Italinas have an abundance of everything except for pioneers.

Hope that helps a bit

Thanks Offworlder for the detailed response. Exactly the kind of advice I was looking for; I was on turn two and realized I'd sucked all the arty out from the infantry corps.

[vinnie71]

Well the above are my preferences. The most important thing is to keep some reserve SU's up the sleeve in order to address particular situations (ex free pioneer units for the assault on Leningrad).

As Pompack correctly pointed out, its an AP intensive method and it takes time to accomplish. Barring major problems, the corps will have sufficient reserves etc by the time you settle down for the blizzard

[jzardos]

So during blizzards do Axis su loses morale like other main formations? If so, what about the idea to move all su units out of blizzard zones? Would be very AP intensive to do that and move them back to corps HQs after the 1st blizzard months.

[Mike13z50]

You can move everything but engineers by setting all combat HQ to 0 and set OKH to 9.

Also anything attached to a division would still be attached.

[jzardos]

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

You can move everything but engineers by setting all combat HQ to 0 and set OKH to 9.

Also anything attached to a division would still be attached.

Nice to know. How long does this process take? Why don't pioneers move too?

[Mike13z50]

ORIGINAL: jzardos

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

You can move everything but engineers by setting all combat HQ to 0 and set OKH to 9.

Also anything attached to a division would still be attached.

Nice to know. How long does this process take? Why don't pioneers move too?

It is the automated support system, it moves everything except engineers for some reason. I'm not sure why they excluded them. And it cost zero AP

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Offworlder



The only SU's that are completely useless are SP infantry gun companies. These tend to evaporate after the first attacks. As far as I know, no replacements are available any time and so they just vanish over time - they're just one shot wonders.

On the very first turn, before you do anything else, return the SP Infantry Gun Companies to whatever corps their division is attached to (all SP Infantry Gun Companies are attached to panzer divisions at the start of Barbarossa). Returning them to corps will preserve them for a long time (in a test game I'm running now they're still at 50% strength or better in late 1942). Remember that two more companies come with the 2nd and 5th Panzer Divisions later in '41; don't forget to return them to corps also.

[Balou]

Question to the experts: there is a "lock hq support" option with the game options screen. Is there any difference to manual locking every corps hq ? Or otherwise: when choosen, do adjustments of HQ support at the HQ screen (add-sub-lock) overrule those settings ?

[Stoat]

My approach to German support units:

I) Philosophy:

I.1) save AP's by by setting all AG's, A's & overstocked Corps to SL 0 over the first several turns, OKH tours entire front & distributes SU's to Corps free of charge. Painstaking, life-draining micromanagement, finished getting the German Corps properly kitted out only on T8 at the cost of some small loss of capability (some Corps attacking without attachments in first few turns), but think I saved close to 100 AP vs. transferring 'atts' around to neighbours, or up & down the chain at a cost of 1 AP ea.
I.2) Strengthen mobile divisions with _mobile_ direct attachments (I don't actually know whether e.g. a Pz Div's movement would grind down an LW Mixed Flak Bn vs. a Motorized Flak Bn by movement attrition, but this is my working assumption)
I.3) adopt a standard, canonical TO&E for each Corps type & deviate as little as possible, in order to maximise flexibility & overall capability (since too many atts in one formation is wasteful).

II) Direct Attachments:

II.1) 27 SPAA Coys attached 1 ea. to the 27 Pz & Mot Divs (26 starting + 60th Mot that comes T4) leaves 0.
II.2) LSSAH: Flamm Pzr Bn (great att, adds about +3 CV!), SP Lt Flk Bn, JgdPz Bn
II.3) Reich: Flamm Pzr Bn, SP Lt Flk Bn, JgdPz Bn
II.4) Totenkopf: Flamm Pzr Bn, SP Lt Flk Bn, JgdPz Bn
II.5) Wiking: SP Lt Flk Bn, JgdPz Bn, Bicycle Recce Bn (awesomest unit in the game can only be made awesomer by attaching the awesomest SU in the game!)
II.6) Cavalry: SP Lt Flk Bn, StuG Bn, MG Bn (key mobile unit up until its Nov departure, works great in bad terrain & when its buddies are out of gas - pump this bad boy up! StuG preferred to JgdPz here for more anti-soft)
II.7) Polizei: MG Bn (to help them 'mow the lawn')
II.8) 78th Inf: StuG Bn (Württembergers without their StuG's would be too sad to Sturm)
II.9) SP Inf Gun Coys stay directly attached to their Pz Divs

III) 'Canonical' Corps Attachments:

III.1) 31 Inf Corps (as at T4), ea. with: Gun, 2 Hwz, LW Mixed Flk, Pnr, 1 of (StuG, PzJgr or JgdPz, some Corps between L0grad & Moscow go without), Const
III.2) 10 Pz Corps, ea. with: Art, 2 Hwz, Mot Flk, LW Mot Flk, 2 Pnr, Hvy Nbl, Nbl (5 Pz Corps get extra Nbl, 1 gets extra Hvy Nbl), Const
III.3) 1 Mtn Corps, ea. with: 3 Art, LW Mixed Flk, Pnr, MG, StuG, 2 Nbl, Const

IV) Higher Formation, FBD & Hvy Hwz Attachments:

IV.1) 12 Armies, ea. with: Flak (any kind), 2 Const
IV.2) 3 Luftflotten: Flak (any kind)
IV.3) 5 FBD's: leave original atts (see other threads about how we don't understand how atts affect FBD functionality)
IV.4) OKH & AG's: remainder (approximately half) of all Const units. OKH is left notably with 4 SP Lt Flk Bns, good mobile direct atts (according to their CV & my hypothesis/voodoo about movement attrition), 2 of which will be directly attached to 2nd & 5th Pz Divs upon their T13 arrival.
IV.5) 3 Hvy Hwz Bns are attached to Inf Corps facing L-grad (or S-pol, as needed)

V) Summary:

Giving every Corps a baseline Arty, AA, Eng, AT, capability makes them flexible & significantly stronger than an empty Corps. Concentrate firepower & mobile atts in Pz Corps & mobile Divs to facilitate their crucial task of exploitation & encirclement. Give the Pz & Mot Divs the SPAA Coys - not huge combat power but I think they appreciate the idea that we want to protect them from rapacious PE-2's - the gesture itself sure to be a morale booster for the Panzermänner & Grenadiere. 15 AA to LF's & Armies perhaps a waste but provides some small hedge against your opponent bombing some of your key leaders out of the game.

That's how I do it! [;)]

[Mike13z50]

I like your approach Stoat. I'm considering concentrating the road construction type engineers in OKH and the AG. At least in the beginning while fixing all the railroads.

I haven't seen a corps HQ deploy a rail repair team yet.

[Stoat]

Thanks Mike. Ya, on the rail repair, I have seen a Const attached to a Corps fixing rail, but you're quite right, for most of the opening phases of the Campaign, the Corps & Army HQ's will be too far in front of the railheads to fix rail. I mighta read somewhere about a rule change whereby Consts won't repair rail but will instead help fortify if their HQ is within (5??) hexes of enemy units, but I can't find the reference & very possibly imagined/dreamt/made this up.

I'd also like to have all of my Consts in AG's & OKH up until the first winter, I'm just not sure I a) want to pay for it, or b) want to increase the level of micromanagement I have to do. Thing is, when you set SL to 0, most SU's float up the chain, but some Consts & Pnrs (Engs) are left behind. It very possibly is worthwhile to spend 50 AP or so ASAP to kick those l'il Consts up to OKH, and then do yet another OKH tour of the front to redeploy them to Corps & Armies for free when/as desired, around wintertime, but I find the initial OKH tour advisable but unpleasant and so have not yet chosen to repeat it for the benefit of the Consts.

Of course you could go "balls to the wall" & keep all Consts repairing rail throughout Winter '41-42. Come to think of it, maximising the supply net at the expense of fortifications probably is the way to go if your plan is Total Victory. Which it kinda is, if you just invaded the Soviet Union, isn't it? At a macro level, mightn't this not only improve your supply, but also _decrease_ your use of supply through less fortifying?

Sieg oder Bolschewismus! [;)]

[Mike13z50]

I guess you would have to study the rail "front" and see if you have lines eligible for repair but lacking a team. I was shocked in my first Russian game that Stavka had a repair team on almost every railroad (as long as I was triple stacked on it).