EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941

[Mike29]

Hi all,

first of all sorry for my English, I have no time translate correctly all our emotions about the following shit .

We are group of Russian players have found the unsolvable problem with German aviation. As you all know, German production of fighters is about 24 BF109 and 16 BF110. Against 200+ of Soviet new fighters and thousands of old ones in pool. This is not problem yet, just start. As also generally known, fighters can not fly after some quantity of passed miles. That is why many multipleer games contain limitations of attacks on airfields.

Example - I play Soviet, attack enemy group of fields many times, and after first losses enemy fighters just can not fly and i kill them on the ground. Total losses is about 1 to 1 (1 to 1,5). Fucking good for Russia!

So we limit attacks 1 per field per turn. Then we found another exploit - Soviet attacks units many times (so called mosquito attacks, 100+ flies on every units). Notwithstanding of German air docrines after that attacks any fucking JG has 100% and can not defend their own fields. If we set doctines 0 per cent for intercept they just don't fly and the result the same.

PLEASE ADVICE WHAT SHALL WE DO WITH ALL OF THIS, we can not find correct balance of air losses in 1941. With any rules and playing for both countries we have dead Luftwaffe before the Fall 1941. Now we are thinking about total exclude of airfield attacks for Soviet party, but would it be honest and historical? May be you know how to keep Soviet fields empty each turn, but in my opinion there aren't enough fighters in LW to cover all attacks, and after some turns effectiveness of mentioned attacks are about 1 - 3 so this is also suitable for Russia.

We don't want Russia to win LW in 1941, what ideas you have?

[Mehring]

What game version are you playing? The 1.05 patches make air base raiding much harder for either side and increase plane wastage, particularly old planes.

[Mike29]

1.05, but this situation same for all patches. After fighters have 100% the are sim ple targets on the filds no matter how much AA-guns nearest HQ have. We tried to set up to 10 mixed groups of flacks to LW HQ-s, useless. There must something to be changed principally, because, I resume, the following ways to kill german aviation:

1. Permanent repeating "kamikaze" attacks on fields (after some high losses attacks fighters can not fly, and final losses apr. 1 to 1,5)
2. Permanent "mosquito" attacks on different units then mighty attacks on field (in case limitation of 1 attack per field per turn). Much slow but perfect way. Fist of all Army group N.

[Klydon]

The air model is broken at the moment.

I would limit bombing of airfields to once a turn (after the initial Axis turn) and bombing units once a turn as well.

You could leave it this way for the entire game or work out an agreement that perhaps after a certain date, attacks can go to 2 a turn and then 3 a turn even later. (So for instance 1 a turn until say Jan 43 and then 2 a turn until Jan 44 when it goes to 3 a turn).

[Mike29]

As possible solving of the problem we may suggest to increase emmmmm...(how to put in Enlish?) "flight-miles" of German fighters to 300%. It is historical, they were made up to 20 flights a day in fist months of the War. Something like that, in other case amount of Russian crafts rules even if you destroy 1000 soviet planes each turn.

[Ketza]

I have Soviet opponents doing this to me and with intercept ratings set at 175% they are getting mauled with 10-1 losses. Now they typically only hit the airfields a dozen or so times so maybe that is the difference.

[Mike29]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

and bombing units once a turn as well.

we use this, but as I said after intercepting bombings of units (each unit, but once), German fighters have 100%. Now we are thinking to limit also unit bombings by emm... 3 or 4 for army group for inctance. But this is not so good, its important for USSR to try to increase FAT of any fast German unit.

[Mike29]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I have Soviet opponents doing this to me and with intercept ratings set at 175% they are getting mauled with 10-1 losses. Now they typically only hit the airfields a dozen or so times so maybe that is the difference.

I can make 100 attacks to your units by groups of 1 - 2 bombers in each attack. I will loose about 25% of them (20 - 30 or less). Then I will attack your fields by groups of 100 crafts and your fighters will be tired to resist. You cannot change your doctrines in my turn, you understand? And I can in mine!

[Klydon]

I agree with the idea that German fighters should have more flight miles available to help, but I also think there will be some unintended issues as it will cause a lot of planes to become non-operational due to that much flying.

The big thing to me is the German fighters should be able to shoot down a lot of planes as they historically did. The Russian airforce simply was not a factor for much of 1941, yet in this game that is absolutely not the case.

[vinnie71]

One 'problem' that I have noticed is the one regarding Soviet experience and morale. So I started a Soviet game and was amazed to find that by September, the bulk of the Soviet airforce experience is in the 50's and the morale isn't bad either. Though it may not seem much, this in fact is the basis of Soviet strength semi-decent experience and morale coupled with infinite airframes. Had it not been the crappy Soviet AF leaders I could have blasted the Luftwaffe out of the sky.

Incidentally I have finally realised something. The arrival of the FW 190 fighter bomber is possibly a godsend for the Axis. this is mainly due to the range factor. Few Russian fighters can actually match its range and thus it would be wiser to hold back LW airfields further back than the Soviets. This would expose Soviet bombers to unescorted raids and crippling losses.

[Mike29]

Please, understand correctly, I discuss mechanic problem, no matter experience and amount of soviet fighters. The matter is soviet quantity of aviation allows to overdraft mechanic limit of flight-miles of german fighters, to kill them on the ground then. Consequently allows to destroy them before Fall of 1941. We played couple of games and the result is same. No matter would it be FW190 or Me262 - if it has 100%, it is just ground target.

[76mm]

From what I have seen (experienced), the Germans do much better if they keep their airbases in large clumps. Isolated airbases, or those in small groups, seem much more vulnerable to being bombed.

I suspect that if German players:

1) keep their airbases out of biplane range;
2) deploy their airbases in large clumps; and
3) increase intercept settings as Ketza suggests,

then this problem largely goes away, the Russians just can't take the losses for very long. I also, think but have not yet confirmed that the quality of the Sov air leaders make a big difference in what kind of losses the Sovs suffer.

That said, overall the air war is completely whacked, I hope they figure out how to fix it soon...

[Mike29]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The big thing to me is the German fighters should be able to shoot down a lot of planes as they historically did. The Russian airforce simply was not a factor for much of 1941, yet in this game that is absolutely not the case.

I think they shoot-down normally in fair air battles - during covering of a ground operations, free-hunting, airfield attacks and so on. The only problem is soviet airfield-attacks. Historically proportion in air-balltes wasnt 1 to 10 no matter what Hartmann wrote (lets avoid discussing this ). Of course we lost much planes due operational losses, destroyed by german tanks, not crafts. But we do not want to have 1 to 1 proportion after soviet turn due this mechanic problem.

[76mm]

Another solution might be a house rule requiring any bombing mission (unit or airbase) to have at least x planes (10? 20? 50?). Those 1-2 plane raids that you describe sound awfully gamey...

[Mike29]

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[Mike29]

Yes, now we use this too, but even with such rule german loose. How to upload my save< I will show you how I destroyed JG54 on 10 July 1941. Without mosquito attacks.

[Helpless]

I do not understand what many are you talking about here. LW is certainly not dead (if not run by AI).

Prior the 1.05.28 there was a major air bug. It was serious enough to have impact on game even after update.

If you are getting any weird result, please post a bug report. FWIW, there are no outstanding air combat issues registered.

[Mike29]

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[Jajusha]

I think what Mike is trying to express (and please correct me Mike if i got it wrong):

1) Attack the airfields with your worst crafts until German fighters are at 100% flight miles (can no longer fly). Next, bomb the airfields with your bombers, resulting in 1-1 casualties in airplanes.

2) Playing with a limit of 1 air field attack per turn, a similar exploit. Bomb the enemy units with 1 airplane. LW will mobilize its fighter intercepts. Repeat until fighters stop showing, then bomb the airfield resulting in mass casualties to the German side.

[Helpless]

It is better to keep communication in English here, but you may send me PM/email in Russian showProfile.asp?memid=13846