OUCH!!! 75PP to upgrade LB

[fodder]

Have you looked at q8 yet. It now costs 300 PP to upgrade a one engine bomber to a two engine bomber.

This is the first beta I wish I did'nt download.

This is a total game changer for JFBs.

Not a good one.

[Puhis]

I guess now you know which air groups are for training only... [:(]

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: fodder

Have you looked at q8 yet. It now costs 300 PP to upgrade a one engine bomber to a two engine bomber.

This is the first beta I wish I did'nt download.

This is a total game changer for JFBs.

Not a good one.

Yeah I'm concerned too .. haven't tested it much but I thought it was just upgrades to plane types outside the normal upgrade path ... Am I wrong ?

[edit]And 300 seems a tad excessive too ... might try to have a whisper in Michael's ear.

[fodder]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: fodder

Have you looked at q8 yet. It now costs 300 PP to upgrade a one engine bomber to a two engine bomber.

This is the first beta I wish I did'nt download.

This is a total game changer for JFBs.

Not a good one.

Yeah I'm concerned too .. haven't tested it much but I thought it was just upgrades to plane types outside the normal upgrade path ... Am I wrong ?

[edit]And 300 seems a tad excessive too ... might try to have a whisper in Michael's ear.

Went and took a second look. It seems to apply to all 1 to 2 engine upgrades in or out of upgrade path. There is a slight reduction in cost to 270 for in class changes.

[SoliInvictus202]

although I am not really into all this, meaning I don't know all the facts... - but wasn't PDU on/off made for this? - I mean if you play with "on" you want to be more flexible concerning your plane-models... - noone is talking about historical accuracy anymore with PDU-on....

so if you have to pay 300 PP for a change from one engine to 2-engine with PDU-on - where is the MAIN advantage of PDU-on then?? - (aside from not using the "normal" upgrade-path)
without knowing all the facts it seems to me that it just "hurts" the flexibility of the JFBs... - A LOT!
but I stand corrected!

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202

although I am not really into all this, meaning I don't know all the facts... - but wasn't PDU on/off made for this? - I mean if you play with "on" you want to be more flexible concerning your plane-models... - noone is talking about historical accuracy anymore with PDU-on....

so if you have to pay 300 PP for a change from one engine to 2-engine with PDU-on - where is the advantage of PDU-on then?? -
without knowing all the facts it seems to me that it just "hurts" the flexibility of the JFBs... - A LOT!
but I stand corrected!

Actually I'm not against the idea as a JFB, just trying to work out what is happening... and wonder why it is costing as much as it is in PP's. And extensibly ongoing PP's.

From what I've noted so far testing fighters.
1. Doesn't cost anything to upgrade along a factory path or the same type of plane. Attributes(CV etc) don't seem to have an effect.
2. Costs to change type even if they are defined by the editor (which I raise my eyebrow to) or back again.
3. Even if you change type and continue on that type it costs. (another eyebrow raised) Although if you don't keep the original type I think it's ok.[&:]
... going to check engines with LB next ...
[edit] That's goofy (regarding 3) - an LB group that doesn't have any upgrade path, costs to go from 1 engine to 2 (OK) but then costs to upgrade to another 2E LB... making point 3 a quandary[&:]

[goodboyladdie]

Why? Surely the Jap player has to pay for the extra engines he uses. What is unfair about that? Adding a pp penalty for being able to actually influence your own economy seems like a daft idea. I would love to know the thinking behind it, but if this makes it into a main patch, there would be a lot less people willing to play the dark side...

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

Why? Surely the Jap player has to pay for the extra engines he uses. What is unfair about that? Adding a pp penalty for being able to actually influence your own economy seems like a daft idea. I would love to know the thinking behind it, but if this makes it into a main patch, there would be a lot less people willing to play the dark side...

GBL - good to chat with you again! Was going to post in your thread about the pitfalls of Scen2 ..

Anyway, I should have defined what I'm for (cause it looks like it's here anyway) ...

A one time PP cost to go from one type to another type & no added costs to stay on this type; as long as they are not defined by the editor (meaning the air-group upgrade data), in which case there should be no cost associated..

Furthermore, no cost to switch back (which might be difficult to code, but given the keeping of original types - why not?)

Maybe I haven't tested enough, but this seems to be not the case at present.

And, I can see your point and think this is all a bit of overkill anyway.

[SuluSea]

Personally I believe enacting PPs in within the air model at this stage is a very slippery slope...

Are there additional PP costs on the Allied side for going out of the loop on upgrades? I'll say if PP needs to be paid for going out of the loop then it should be across the board on airframes for both sides and not just one to two engine bombers.

The Japanese side has advantages with PDU on but the Allied player has advantages as well for instance, the Japanese player is blessed with interior lines so essentially if a plane were to come online a case could be made that the airplane could be flown anywhere in the empire in about a 7-10 days or less without needing to go to sea and potentially getting sunk. This case is not so with USAAF airframes if upgrades aren't made in the United States for example. The Allied player once a plane produces enough numbers can upgrade planes in India, Austraila or wherever they have met the criteria for upgrades with no delay and/or danger to ship the airframes to the location not to mention shipping and escorts freed up to embark on other duties.

Hearing some thoughts behind changing this would be great as well as the changes in detail. Thanks, [:)]

[michaelm75au]

There is a bug in there I just worked out. Complicated by the LLB/FB/DB addition.

Will be fixed in the 1108q8a out soon.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

There is a bug in there I just worked out. Complicated by the LLB/FB/DB addition.

Will be fixed in the 1108q8a out soon.

Well then another beer for me and another round of testing ...

Cheers

[HansBolter]

The Allies have been burdened with outrageously expensive PP costs from day one.

Try having to pay well over 1000 PP just to release a division from the US that historically shipped to Australia. Not just once, but TWICE!

The Allies get hammered on PP costs just to match history, let alone to deviate from it.

You're not going to get much traction complaining about how "unfair" your PP costs are.

You're likely to find a lot of deaf ears on the AFB side.

Watching y'all make your case to the devs should be entertaining though.


Figures....turns out to be a bug before I even get a chance to gloat over some real equity. Oh well.....[:(]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

There is a bug in there I just worked out. Complicated by the LLB/FB/DB addition.

Will be fixed in the 1108q8a out soon.

Hope it's not the same bug that casues base upgrade percentages to be reported in the hundreds of percentages. Tabiteuea's airbase now shows 340% progress toward the next level.

[Puhis]

It costs 1600-1900 PPs to buy out IJA Kwantung divisions, so it's not just "Allies get hammered on PP costs just to match history".

[SoliInvictus202]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

It costs 1600-1900 PPs to buy out IJA Kwantung divisions, so it's not just "Allies get hammered on PP costs just to match history".

exactly - even mentioning this "we're getting hammered"... no comment.... if the Allies get all on day one - noone will play the Japanese any more... simple fact... - just a pretty ridiculous argument....
I'm in January '44 - and I have bought out almost all Australian Divisions, after I bought out all eligible American Divisions... - even some Indian Divisions are unrestricted by now... - I have more than enough for everything... even plane squadrons have been released in massive numbers into the pacific... - so I never got the feeling of being restricted by PP except in '42 - where it should be like this!

[Dixie]

The idea is, IMO at least, a good one although it may need a bit of adjustment. That's what you get for playing the beta. [;)]

If a player has to pay PPs to change aircraft outside the historical/scheduled types then it may just scale back the potential for the unrealistic Japanese economies that are possible. Of course, the PPs should also apply to the Allies. If you want to change B-25s into B-17s then there needs to be some trade-off.

[Andy Mac]

As michael said it was a bug

Intention is we are adding flexibility to change Light Bombers, Dive bombers and Fighter Bombers in between each type if PDU = on but its not free

Within bomber categories will remain as was.

Intention was to give players a little more flexibility but at a moderate cost

[SoliInvictus202]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

As michael said it was a bug

Intention is we are adding flexibility to change Light Bombers, Dive bombers and Fighter Bombers in between each type if PDU = on but its not free

Within bomber categories will remain as was.

Intention was to give players a little more flexibility but at a moderate cost

outstanding news! - thanks for explaining!

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

As michael said it was a bug

Intention is we are adding flexibility to change Light Bombers, Dive bombers and Fighter Bombers in between each type if PDU = on but its not free

Within bomber categories will remain as was.

Intention was to give players a little more flexibility but at a moderate cost

outstanding news! - thanks for explaining!

Andy, Michael -

You are always on it and, of course, First Class Work.

Thank You, Gents.

Mac

[SuluSea]

Andy and Micheal, thanks for the explanation and continued work on the game. As always, it's appreaciated to the tenth power!! [:)][&o]